A blog for Willamette University's class CLAS 171 "Love and War, Gods and Heroes: Greek and Roman Epic Poetry." Used for discussions of the epics of Homer, Hesiod, Vergil, and Lucan.
Monday, April 16, 2012
Vergil, Aeneid, Books 9-12
What is your favorite episode in the Aeneid, and why?
(response & 2 comments on classmates' posts due Tues., 4/17/12, by 9:30 AM)
My favorite episode in the Aeneid is when we see Aeneas traveling to the Arcadians, as well as other neighboring tribes to recruit support against the Latins. This, more so than most scenes, I can really clearly picture because it reminds me of so many other war movies and what not where this happens. I also find it interesting how willing all these other leaders are willing to help Aeneas, despite the fact that they don't know him. Even King Evander of the Arcadians sends his son, Pallas, to learn from Aeneas.
Also, just for good measure I really enjoyed reading about the battle between the Trojans and the Volscians outside the Latin's city. I particularly liked reading about Camilla just because it is the first time in all of the epics that we see a mortal female warrior who is actually comparable to men in battle. It is really cool, especially that this was written so long ago when I've always thought that women were considered so inferior in Roman society.
I was really happy to read about Camilla too. She wasn't just comparable to men, she was basically the best warrior there. She definitely reminds me of Athena in the Homer epics.
I like the point you bring up about everyone being so ready and willing to help Aeneas, it really reminded me of the Odyssey where everyone is so willing to believe that Odysseus is who he says he is and pony up treasure for his adventures.
I enjoyed book 9 because it reminded me of the Iliad. I liked the pitched battles that Homer described. So it was interesting for me to compare Virgil's battles to Homer's. There were definitely some similarities such as the quick lists of deaths that were not important enough for an embellished death. However, I think that Virgil does have his own way of writing and I actually enjoyed some of his battles more than I liked some of the battles in the Iliad. In my opinion I think Virgil is a little easier to follow sometimes, which helped me understand what was going on.
I agree about Virgil being easier to follow. Virgil seems to use way less formulaic verses and epithets than Homer does, so whereas in the Iliad or the Odyssey certain common phrases could have come from anywhere in the poem, in Virgil there seem to be much more standalone passages.
I like Virgil better than Homer. The only thing that was kind of difficult for me at first was figuring out who was who because of the different names for Roman gods. However it turned out to be sort of fun. I found Virgil to be less boring and more funny than Homer. I think that he was successful in taking the good aspects of Homer's works, leaving behind some, and improving others.
I also agree, the writing style of Virgil flows better than Homer. With Virgil, I had the feeling that he meant to put everything in his writing, where as Homer, at times, just rambled on for background information
I suppose I have to take the role of devil's advocate. On the whole, I enjoyed Homer's writing more. I think maybe my opinion is bias because I've always loved the story of the Odyssey and the Iliad. However, the climactic scenes in the Aeneid I will concede are better written, I found the down time, and the scenes between gods, particularly in the Iliad, much more entertaining. Also, I also think I'm bias because I had no understanding of who Aeneis was before reading this book
Lots of people share your bias, John! At the same time, it is true that Vergil gets rid of much of what was difficult to stomach in Homer, not least the endless catalogues of names you immediately forget. He does have catalogues, of course, but they seem shorter. Still, the scenes between Zeus and Hera in Homer seem much more entertaining than most of the divine scenes in Vergil.
Since I'm currently taking a Roman history class along with this one this semester, I've really been looking forward to Virgil from the start. I was not disappointed. One of my favorite things that we studied in my Roman history class was the Punic Wars, particularly when Hannibal was involved. Because of this I'd have to say that my favorite part would probably be Dido's invocation of the furies at the end of book four. She states "That is my prayer, my final cry--I pour it our/with my own lifeblood. And you, my Tyrians,/harry with hatred all his line, his race to come:/make that offering to my ashes, send it down below./No love between our peoples, ever, no pacts of peace! . . ./this is my curse--war between all/our peoples, all their children, endless war!" (149). It seems pretty clear in this passage that Virgil is attempting to set up a mythical enmity between the future Rome and the future Carthage which will help to explain the history of the Punic Wars. This use of retroactive history and political propaganda is particularly fascinating to me.
I loved studying the Punic Wars and they made me a huge fan of none other than the mighty Carthaginians. Reading about Dido and the myths surrounding her great city was pretty sweet, but nothing beats hearing about the Roman-crushing deeds of Hamilcar Barka and Hannibal. Perhaps there is in an epic in there somewhere.
Kind of an intriguing thought...it kind of seems like epics kind of died out a little. I mena, the only epics I had ever heard of before this class are actually the ones we are reading.
You are right, Jorden, no one writes epics anymore. That gap, however, has been filled by the movies. I'm not just talking about movies like "Gladiator" or "300", but also about other movies that tell stories on an "epic" scale, like the "Star Wars" movies or "epic" Westerns.
One of my favorite parts of The Aeneid was in Book 7. It is the part where Aeneas is offered King Latinus' daughter and land and many riches and everything seems too perfect. But seeing as how it is only halfway through the book, you know something is up. Juno is straight evil and such an awesome antagonist. The way Virgil describes the scene where she orders Allecto to interfere is brilliantly portrayed. "It glides between her robes and her smooth breasts but she/ feels nothing, no shudder of coils, senses nothing at all/ as the viper breathes its fire through the frenzied queen./ The enormous snake becomes the gold choker around her throat,/ the raveling end of a headband braiding through her hair,/ writhing over her body." It is so visual and puts this vivid image in your head that is so twisted and really really cool.
Not much to say other than great minds think alike ;) Did the vipers make you think of Cleopatra? Later in Book 8, during our history lesson, Virgil mentions Cleopatra, so maybe that's why I am reminded of her. I honestly think it might be a reference though.
Now that you mention it, Cleopatra does jump almost immediately to mind. Wouldn't that be interesting to one ancient text referring to another even more ancient murder.
Word! Throughout the epic, I have really enjoyed Virgil's imagery. Homer's depictions of things were okay, but Virgil, I think, paints much more colorful images within the mind.
Although I loved the scenes and books involving Dido, one thing beat them out: Juno's use of Allecto. What a fantastic scene and series of events. I have always loved the cunning ways of Juno or Hera. What makes them even more fascinating is the way in which Virgil utilized them to spin our perception of her around. When reading Homer, someone might appreciate Hera's antics, see them as pro-Greek and thus good. However, when we see events (The fall of Troy and Hera's clever antics) from the Trojan perspective we come to recognize something we knew the minute we saw Hector holding his son and spear: the Trojans are an an extraordinary people. In the face of this, it is hard to see the Greeks as the “good guys” and all too easy to see them as rather evil. I admire the moral ambiguity. Deeper things aside, the furies are rather remarkable and the description of Allecto was vivid and striking. One thing did disturb me about that book though and that was the strange way time passed. It felt choppy and unfinished. However, perhaps I'm just projecting because of Professor Knorr's statement.
It was hard for me not to choose an episode involving Dido as my favorite. The intense emotion with her tragic undoing was particularly palpable. On an unrelated note, I also am able to appreciate the moral ambiguity. Nothing is as black and white as it may initially seem.
Heras wrath in particular was my absolute favorite part so far. The imagery of the Fury was just amazing I thought. That scene is kind of the first thing that pops into my head when I think about this now. The combination of the Illiad and the Odyssey is actually pretty interesting as well, on top of the imagery and the much superior structure.
I would agree that Juno is one of the more interesting parts of this poem. Her wrath reminds me of the wicked witch, and you really never know what she will try next. You truly start to loath her throughout this poem in my mind, which is not the case for Hera in the greek poems.
Vergil's Juno does seem to be more wicked than Homer's Hera. I find it interesting that this is true even though we see her interact far less frequently with her husband, Jupiter. There is only one scene where they fight. In a way, Vergil seems to have sanitized Juno's role: no seduction and less visible undermining of Jupiter's authority.
I like the gods cleverness as well. I really enjoy how each author works them into their writing in different ways yet each still seems to follow a base character. I also liked the reversal of our ideas about the Greeks. What seems so great in the Iliad just seems rather cruel in the Iliad. Though it probably still seemed cruel we were just rooting for the Greeks.
One of my favorite episodes involved the fighting in Book 10, primarily I think because I had been listening to thrash metal before I sat down to read it.. I liked it because it reminded me of one of my favorite authors, George R.R. Martin, in the way that the battle was reported. Book 10, of course, focuses on the feats and defeats of particular captains. The structure of this section reminded me of the depiction of warring in Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I can't really put my finger on why.. It could be the imagery involved, or how it jumps around a bit, or even how moments of tragedy (such as Pallas' death, are juxtaposed with intensely brutal language (ie."stamping his foot on the corpse" and such). Either way, I am glad that I read this because I think that the writing style of one of favorite authors was heavily influenced by Virgil's epic.
The fighting in book 10 was very entertaining, I definitely could picture the battle going on and the good imagery by Virgil makes it very easy to do so
My favorite part of this section of the Aeneid was probably how Juno, who was Hera's equivalent, was far more wrathful than Hera was in the Odyssey. It was entertaining seeing Juno almost as the same character so her actions just added to all the actions of her before. I also enjoyed how Aeneas went to rally for support in his fight against the Latins and received help from a couple different groups
I also liked both of the points you brought up. Not only is Juno so much more vengeful than before, but the Trojans have to ask the Greeks, their former besiegers for help. It is quite an interesting situation.
My favorite part was book 9, specify when the battle begun. It interested me because simply I like some action when I read. Not to say the rest wasn't good, it just didn't stand out to me as much. It was also nice to be able to compare the Aeneid to Iliad and see common themes. This idea goes for all of the book being able to compare and contrast the works of Homer and Virgil.
I agree, the Aeneid is more and more clearly becoming an abridged Odyssey and Iliad. Book 9 very clearly reminded me of passages from the Iliad also, particularly heroes aristeias
My favorite section was book X. I particularly enjoyed the debate between the gods, because Greek and Roman mythology have always been very interesting to me, as well as Zeus' character. I thought it was really interesting that Zeus decided not to help either side. In a Roman epic, I would expect Zeus, the master of all gods, to side with Aeneis but instead the gods allow whichever side to win based on their own merits. On second thought, this is a much more inspiring choice for the audience of the Aeneid, the Romans. instead of believing the gods blessed them, they have evidence that they are in fact the superior people.
I would have to agree about the Roman mythology through out this poem. To me it was one of the if not the most interesting aspect of the entire Aeneid. You can really notice the similarities and differences through out this poem, and piecing it all together is a very cool realization.
I really enjoyed finishing up the final portions of the Aeneid, and basically re living some of the finer portions of the Iliad. That's exactly what these last 4 book entailed was the true heroic ending that the greeks are known for, as a gift to the Trojans. It is very interesting finding yourself on the side of the Trojans, when in the Iliad they were on the exact opposite side of this battle. You kind of have mixed feelings about the whole situation. My favorite episode would had to have been Aeneas' revenge slaying on the battlefield, in true Achilles like fashion. That's what people stay for in these poems is the fighting, and like the Iliad the Aeneid did not disappoint.
I also liked seeing the Trojans on the opposite side of the battle. It makes you wonder if they might sympathize with the Latins, having been in a similar situation in the past. However, they are fighting for their lives, as they have no home to flee to, so the circumstances are a bit different.
My favorite episode from this reading would have to be 12, for a couple reasons.
Firstly, we see the end of the conflict that had been building up for the entire story. Unlike the Iliad or the Odyssey, the Trojans here have no other home to go back to. Both cities are fighting for their lives, and only one can succeed. Second, we get to see fighting inside of the Latin city.
My favorite thing about this episode is Juno's final wish: that the Trojans be remembered as Latins, to assume their language and dress. I think this is important because Aeneas set out in the beginning to found a new Troy, and in doing so had to enlist the aid of the Greeks (their former enemies), lose many men, and in essence, fail in his mission. He did not found a new Troy, the Trojans were almost forgotten.
My favorite episode in the Aeneid is when we see Aeneas traveling to the Arcadians, as well as other neighboring tribes to recruit support against the Latins. This, more so than most scenes, I can really clearly picture because it reminds me of so many other war movies and what not where this happens. I also find it interesting how willing all these other leaders are willing to help Aeneas, despite the fact that they don't know him. Even King Evander of the Arcadians sends his son, Pallas, to learn from Aeneas.
ReplyDeleteAlso, just for good measure I really enjoyed reading about the battle between the Trojans and the Volscians outside the Latin's city. I particularly liked reading about Camilla just because it is the first time in all of the epics that we see a mortal female warrior who is actually comparable to men in battle. It is really cool, especially that this was written so long ago when I've always thought that women were considered so inferior in Roman society.
DeleteI was really happy to read about Camilla too. She wasn't just comparable to men, she was basically the best warrior there. She definitely reminds me of Athena in the Homer epics.
DeleteI like the point you bring up about everyone being so ready and willing to help Aeneas, it really reminded me of the Odyssey where everyone is so willing to believe that Odysseus is who he says he is and pony up treasure for his adventures.
DeleteI enjoyed book 9 because it reminded me of the Iliad. I liked the pitched battles that Homer described. So it was interesting for me to compare Virgil's battles to Homer's. There were definitely some similarities such as the quick lists of deaths that were not important enough for an embellished death. However, I think that Virgil does have his own way of writing and I actually enjoyed some of his battles more than I liked some of the battles in the Iliad. In my opinion I think Virgil is a little easier to follow sometimes, which helped me understand what was going on.
ReplyDeleteI agree about Virgil being easier to follow. Virgil seems to use way less formulaic verses and epithets than Homer does, so whereas in the Iliad or the Odyssey certain common phrases could have come from anywhere in the poem, in Virgil there seem to be much more standalone passages.
DeleteI like Virgil better than Homer. The only thing that was kind of difficult for me at first was figuring out who was who because of the different names for Roman gods. However it turned out to be sort of fun. I found Virgil to be less boring and more funny than Homer. I think that he was successful in taking the good aspects of Homer's works, leaving behind some, and improving others.
DeleteI agree, it was a much less....lethargic of a read at times, seems even more developed and just all around better structured than Homer.
DeleteI also agree, the writing style of Virgil flows better than Homer. With Virgil, I had the feeling that he meant to put everything in his writing, where as Homer, at times, just rambled on for background information
DeleteI suppose I have to take the role of devil's advocate. On the whole, I enjoyed Homer's writing more. I think maybe my opinion is bias because I've always loved the story of the Odyssey and the Iliad. However, the climactic scenes in the Aeneid I will concede are better written, I found the down time, and the scenes between gods, particularly in the Iliad, much more entertaining. Also, I also think I'm bias because I had no understanding of who Aeneis was before reading this book
DeleteLots of people share your bias, John! At the same time, it is true that Vergil gets rid of much of what was difficult to stomach in Homer, not least the endless catalogues of names you immediately forget. He does have catalogues, of course, but they seem shorter. Still, the scenes between Zeus and Hera in Homer seem much more entertaining than most of the divine scenes in Vergil.
DeleteSince I'm currently taking a Roman history class along with this one this semester, I've really been looking forward to Virgil from the start. I was not disappointed. One of my favorite things that we studied in my Roman history class was the Punic Wars, particularly when Hannibal was involved. Because of this I'd have to say that my favorite part would probably be Dido's invocation of the furies at the end of book four. She states "That is my prayer, my final cry--I pour it our/with my own lifeblood. And you, my Tyrians,/harry with hatred all his line, his race to come:/make that offering to my ashes, send it down below./No love between our peoples, ever, no pacts of peace! . . ./this is my curse--war between all/our peoples, all their children, endless war!" (149). It seems pretty clear in this passage that Virgil is attempting to set up a mythical enmity between the future Rome and the future Carthage which will help to explain the history of the Punic Wars. This use of retroactive history and political propaganda is particularly fascinating to me.
ReplyDeleteI loved studying the Punic Wars and they made me a huge fan of none other than the mighty Carthaginians. Reading about Dido and the myths surrounding her great city was pretty sweet, but nothing beats hearing about the Roman-crushing deeds of Hamilcar Barka and Hannibal. Perhaps there is in an epic in there somewhere.
DeleteKind of an intriguing thought...it kind of seems like epics kind of died out a little. I mena, the only epics I had ever heard of before this class are actually the ones we are reading.
DeleteYou are right, Jorden, no one writes epics anymore. That gap, however, has been filled by the movies. I'm not just talking about movies like "Gladiator" or "300", but also about other movies that tell stories on an "epic" scale, like the "Star Wars" movies or "epic" Westerns.
DeleteOne of my favorite parts of The Aeneid was in Book 7. It is the part where Aeneas is offered King Latinus' daughter and land and many riches and everything seems too perfect. But seeing as how it is only halfway through the book, you know something is up. Juno is straight evil and such an awesome antagonist. The way Virgil describes the scene where she orders Allecto to interfere is brilliantly portrayed. "It glides between her robes and her smooth breasts but she/ feels nothing, no shudder of coils, senses nothing at all/ as the viper breathes its fire through the frenzied queen./ The enormous snake becomes the gold choker around her throat,/ the raveling end of a headband braiding through her hair,/ writhing over her body."
ReplyDeleteIt is so visual and puts this vivid image in your head that is so twisted and really really cool.
Not much to say other than great minds think alike ;) Did the vipers make you think of Cleopatra? Later in Book 8, during our history lesson, Virgil mentions Cleopatra, so maybe that's why I am reminded of her. I honestly think it might be a reference though.
DeleteNow that you mention it, Cleopatra does jump almost immediately to mind. Wouldn't that be interesting to one ancient text referring to another even more ancient murder.
DeleteWord! Throughout the epic, I have really enjoyed Virgil's imagery. Homer's depictions of things were okay, but Virgil, I think, paints much more colorful images within the mind.
DeleteAlthough I loved the scenes and books involving Dido, one thing beat them out: Juno's use of Allecto. What a fantastic scene and series of events. I have always loved the cunning ways of Juno or Hera. What makes them even more fascinating is the way in which Virgil utilized them to spin our perception of her around. When reading Homer, someone might appreciate Hera's antics, see them as pro-Greek and thus good. However, when we see events (The fall of Troy and Hera's clever antics) from the Trojan perspective we come to recognize something we knew the minute we saw Hector holding his son and spear: the Trojans are an an extraordinary people. In the face of this, it is hard to see the Greeks as the “good guys” and all too easy to see them as rather evil. I admire the moral ambiguity. Deeper things aside, the furies are rather remarkable and the description of Allecto was vivid and striking. One thing did disturb me about that book though and that was the strange way time passed. It felt choppy and unfinished. However, perhaps I'm just projecting because of Professor Knorr's statement.
ReplyDeleteIt was hard for me not to choose an episode involving Dido as my favorite. The intense emotion with her tragic undoing was particularly palpable. On an unrelated note, I also am able to appreciate the moral ambiguity. Nothing is as black and white as it may initially seem.
DeleteHeras wrath in particular was my absolute favorite part so far. The imagery of the Fury was just amazing I thought. That scene is kind of the first thing that pops into my head when I think about this now. The combination of the Illiad and the Odyssey is actually pretty interesting as well, on top of the imagery and the much superior structure.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that Juno is one of the more interesting parts of this poem. Her wrath reminds me of the wicked witch, and you really never know what she will try next. You truly start to loath her throughout this poem in my mind, which is not the case for Hera in the greek poems.
DeleteVergil's Juno does seem to be more wicked than Homer's Hera. I find it interesting that this is true even though we see her interact far less frequently with her husband, Jupiter. There is only one scene where they fight. In a way, Vergil seems to have sanitized Juno's role: no seduction and less visible undermining of Jupiter's authority.
DeleteI like the gods cleverness as well. I really enjoy how each author works them into their writing in different ways yet each still seems to follow a base character. I also liked the reversal of our ideas about the Greeks. What seems so great in the Iliad just seems rather cruel in the Iliad. Though it probably still seemed cruel we were just rooting for the Greeks.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite episodes involved the fighting in Book 10, primarily I think because I had been listening to thrash metal before I sat down to read it.. I liked it because it reminded me of one of my favorite authors, George R.R. Martin, in the way that the battle was reported. Book 10, of course, focuses on the feats and defeats of particular captains. The structure of this section reminded me of the depiction of warring in Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I can't really put my finger on why.. It could be the imagery involved, or how it jumps around a bit, or even how moments of tragedy (such as Pallas' death, are juxtaposed with intensely brutal language (ie."stamping his foot on the corpse" and such). Either way, I am glad that I read this because I think that the writing style of one of favorite authors was heavily influenced by Virgil's epic.
ReplyDeleteThe fighting in book 10 was very entertaining, I definitely could picture the battle going on and the good imagery by Virgil makes it very easy to do so
DeleteMy favorite part of this section of the Aeneid was probably how Juno, who was Hera's equivalent, was far more wrathful than Hera was in the Odyssey. It was entertaining seeing Juno almost as the same character so her actions just added to all the actions of her before. I also enjoyed how Aeneas went to rally for support in his fight against the Latins and received help from a couple different groups
ReplyDeleteI also liked both of the points you brought up. Not only is Juno so much more vengeful than before, but the Trojans have to ask the Greeks, their former besiegers for help. It is quite an interesting situation.
DeleteMy favorite part was book 9, specify when the battle begun. It interested me because simply I like some action when I read. Not to say the rest wasn't good, it just didn't stand out to me as much. It was also nice to be able to compare the Aeneid to Iliad and see common themes. This idea goes for all of the book being able to compare and contrast the works of Homer and Virgil.
ReplyDeleteI agree, the Aeneid is more and more clearly becoming an abridged Odyssey and Iliad. Book 9 very clearly reminded me of passages from the Iliad also, particularly heroes aristeias
DeleteMy favorite section was book X. I particularly enjoyed the debate between the gods, because Greek and Roman mythology have always been very interesting to me, as well as Zeus' character. I thought it was really interesting that Zeus decided not to help either side. In a Roman epic, I would expect Zeus, the master of all gods, to side with Aeneis but instead the gods allow whichever side to win based on their own merits. On second thought, this is a much more inspiring choice for the audience of the Aeneid, the Romans. instead of believing the gods blessed them, they have evidence that they are in fact the superior people.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree about the Roman mythology through out this poem. To me it was one of the if not the most interesting aspect of the entire Aeneid. You can really notice the similarities and differences through out this poem, and piecing it all together is a very cool realization.
DeleteI really enjoyed finishing up the final portions of the Aeneid, and basically re living some of the finer portions of the Iliad. That's exactly what these last 4 book entailed was the true heroic ending that the greeks are known for, as a gift to the Trojans. It is very interesting finding yourself on the side of the Trojans, when in the Iliad they were on the exact opposite side of this battle. You kind of have mixed feelings about the whole situation. My favorite episode would had to have been Aeneas' revenge slaying on the battlefield, in true Achilles like fashion. That's what people stay for in these poems is the fighting, and like the Iliad the Aeneid did not disappoint.
ReplyDeleteI also liked seeing the Trojans on the opposite side of the battle. It makes you wonder if they might sympathize with the Latins, having been in a similar situation in the past. However, they are fighting for their lives, as they have no home to flee to, so the circumstances are a bit different.
DeleteMy favorite episode from this reading would have to be 12, for a couple reasons.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, we see the end of the conflict that had been building up for the entire story. Unlike the Iliad or the Odyssey, the Trojans here have no other home to go back to. Both cities are fighting for their lives, and only one can succeed. Second, we get to see fighting inside of the Latin city.
My favorite thing about this episode is Juno's final wish: that the Trojans be remembered as Latins, to assume their language and dress. I think this is important because Aeneas set out in the beginning to found a new Troy, and in doing so had to enlist the aid of the Greeks (their former enemies), lose many men, and in essence, fail in his mission. He did not found a new Troy, the Trojans were almost forgotten.