A blog for Willamette University's class CLAS 171 "Love and War, Gods and Heroes: Greek and Roman Epic Poetry." Used for discussions of the epics of Homer, Hesiod, Vergil, and Lucan.
Monday, April 23, 2012
Lucan's Civil War (a.k.a. Pharsalia) 1-5
In which way is Lucan's epic a reaction to older epics?
(response and 2 comments on classmates' posts)
Lucan’s Civil War reacts to the older epics in a variety of ways in the given reading. In book 3, around lines 169-297, there is a long passage that catalogues the forces that make up Pompey’s army. I found this analogous to the catalogue of the ships in Homer’s Iliad, because both serve to emphasize the size of each respective army. A little later in Book 3 I picked up on a powerful call for peace in Lucan’s poetry in the instance of Caesar confronting the people of Massilia who say; "'To your civil war we give our tears and our withdrawal. Let sacred wounds be handled by no alien hand'" (313-315)”. The Massilian’s simply refuse to be implicated in the war, but Caesar doesn’t really give them a choice in the matter. Another instance in this reading that jumped out at me was in Book 6 when Caesar had marched to Brundisium and was sailing across the Adriatic. Like in the Odyssey when Odysseus sailed from Calypso's island, there is a brutal storm that causes some trauma. I find this to be a clear parallel, but am not entirely sure how to interpret it. Caesar is painted to be an over-ambitious character it seems, and his nearly drowning while at sea appears to be a lesson of hubris; even with all his ambition he’s still subject to the elements.
In addition to the cataloging of troops, Lucan also has a simliar, but unique battle scene. The naval battle that takes place in book 3 features all of the blood, guts, and gore that I have come to expect from epics. In fact, Lucan set a new precedent. Not only are heroes speared in the back, they also get one in the front. If that weren't enough, the spears meet in the middle and the blood, being confused and all, is forced to erupt from both wounds simultaneously in a spray of crimson only paralleled in Anime and Battle Royale.
Jacob, you picked one of my favorite scenes! Where Vergil tampers down the gore, Lucan really ramps it up again, so much so, indeed, that it becomes ridiculous.
I loved the gory scenes! Ridiculous yes, but it made it so much more interesting. I don't like Lucan as much as Virgil, but I do like his twist on the harsh battle scenes. I think it is done this way to expose the ridiculousness of the war and in a inverse way,advocate peace.
I have really enjoyed the gory scenes in Lucan. These scenes really grab my attention and keep me interested while a (possibly otherwise boring to read) battle plays out.
It seems to me that the depiction of the gore is more and more detailed as we move away from traditional epics. Homer had his fair share. Virgil included some with some more realistic detail. Finally, Lucan includes a lot of gore with immense detail.
You're interpretation of his drowning due to hubris is really interesting. Though you didn't write it, this is a very clear correlation to Odysseus' misfortune. Perhaps, though Lucan is held to some historical accuracy, this is a reference, and compliment to Caesar's similarities to the Great Tactition
Newton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I raise this law merely to illustrate that what is true for the universe seems to also hold true for epics. Lucan rails incessantly against the horrors of the Roman Civil War throughout these first chapters, asking again and again why such a thing must befall Rome. This is a far cry from what I imagine Homer did while writing the Iliad. Relaxing on a pile of slaves he likely merely shrugged and grinned as he composed the lines where Agamemnon slaughters a Trojan who has surrendered and is begging for his life. I'm joking, but in all seriousness I don't think that Homer, Virgil, or Hesiod share any of Lucan's values. That said, it is clear that Lucan is building upon the foundations laid by his predecessors. Who could Caesar be except Achilles? He may be driven by Fortune, but is that really any different from Fate? The words, like the names, could be used interchangeably. Personally, I love Caesar and all of his war mongering. I don't care that its immoral. His statements and actions are what make the story interesting. I believe that Lucan did this intentionally and uses Caesar, the poster boy of conquerors, to illustrate what might be considered evil and wrong with them.
I appreciate how much you read into things. I don't know if I would personally connect Caesar and Achilles, but I suppose it is not that much of a stretch. Maybe I am just biased because I hate Caesar. And Lucan for that matter. (Not really, but kind of.) But I agree that Lucan is intentionally illustrating the corruption of Caesar and those alike. He definitely does so in a round about way, not unlike my theory of the extreme gore.
I think that the correlation at this point is highly put by chance. Im not too well versed in the entire history of the epic poem, but it seems to me that Homer kind of set the standard or mapwork of how to write a good epic. Seeing this many relations to what seems to be the original, may just be circumstance, but I find it hard to beleive that someone wouldnt have taken some inspiration from the great Homer. I think that the quality and readability also has diminished slightly, though this could also be a difference of translators.
You are right about Homer's pervasive influence. In fact, it's so persuasive that it influences even an epic like Lucan's that, at first glance, tells a very different story. Part of Lucan's reaction is that he imitates certain stock scenes, such as the ship's catalogue, battle scenes, or the story of Hercules (a.k.a. Alcides) and Antaeus in book 5, which mirrors the story of Hercules killing the monster Cacus in Vergil's Aeneid. The other part is that he deliberately writes an anti-epic. Have you noticed evidence for that?
We talked about in class briefly (I think I may have brought it up) about the concept of honor in Homer’s epics versus Virgil’s. In The Iliad, we saw a certain type of honor/warrior code which included things like; if someone is unarmed and pleading for their life, you don’t kill them. Other things also included guest friendship and gift giving, burial of the enemy’s dead and a declaration of lineage before fighting. (I think). And although these “codes of honor” are made known, they are also broken. Achilles and Menelaus are seen killing Trojans who are begging for mercy. Achilles drags Hector’s dead body around the Trojan walls for weeks before he lets them bury it. In The Aeneid, honor seems to be of greater importance because those that didn’t respect the “code” were eventually punished by death. Take the guy [Euralyus] who stole the helmet which later gives him away and he is killed. And Turnus too, when he takes the belt of Pallas, and Aeneas almost grants him life in the end as he begged at his knees, (honoring the code) but sees Pallas’ belt on Turnus’ armor and decides to kill him. In Lucan’s civil war, the idea of honor is shown as much more important and a serious issue. One small example on page 45, Caesar speaks to Metellus , “Empty are the hopes of honourable death which you conceive: my hand will not polute itself with your slaughter, Mettelus; no office you hold will make you deserving of Caesar’s wrath.”
I noticed the honor component too! It's very interesting how it's differently represented through the three works, but they all have the same basic idea.
Its interesting how the idea of honor is evident in all the epics, yet slightly changes from one epic to another. Another interesting thing I noticed on the topic of honor was something that Caesar ordered his men to do: "...let them not in terror lie low in a coward's death: as they run away let them receive the weapon full in the breast."
Homer's influence is very present throughout Pharsalia. But rather manifesting itself in convenient and easy to identify technical characteristics (except for a few, like the catalogue in book 3), Lucan seems to utilize the themes and cultural ideas found in Homer's work. Honor, for example, is very prominent in the Iliad, the Odyssey and now Pharsalia. Lucan throws a new twist on it, of course (he really can't avoid it, Pharsalia is too politicaly charged to be as cut and dry as Homer's works), but the basic elements are there. However, this begs the question: is Lucan really using Homer for inspiration, or are they both just drawing upon common cultural ideals? The answer needn't be mutually exclusive, and we can't ignore the fact that Lucan definitely read Homer, but we should consider that before attributing everything to Homer's influence.
I noticed the similarity of the catalog too, which was likely written for the same reason. I believe this poem would have sections which were read orally. Thus, that section would once again serve as a shout out to the people of that area, although maybe they wouldn't want to be involved in this case.
To answer your question, I think we need to keep in mind the situation in which Lucan had to write this epic. He wrote it under the pressure of the Roman Republic and the potential of imprisonment/execution for writing this epic. I believe that he had most certainly read Homer, and therefore may have been slightly influenced by Homer in that a lot of this epic poem is written in traditional epic style i.e. extended similes, catalogues, etc. However, as far as the question of the prevalent theme of honor found both in the Iliad and the Odyssey, as well as Pharsalia, I do believe it was simply a cultural ideal that found its way into these epics. Contrasting to the Iliad and the Odyssey though, where in those epics those characteristics were generally attributed to the heroes, rather than common folk, I believe that in Pharsalia, every Roman citizen operates on honor and is expected to act honorably, as were the Roman ideals.
One of the most obvious ways in which Lucan is a reaction to older epics can be seen in its use of catalogues of forces, and the detailed descriptions of battle scenes. The scene which caught my attention most in the reading was the naval battle in book 3. Some excerpts follow: "Deep blood foams in the water, the waves are choked by the clotted gore and the ships, when hauled by iron chains thrown on board, are kept apart by crowds of corpses." (Book 3, line 572-575) "Catus fights, boldly holding on to Greek post, at one moment he is pieced in his back and chest alike by weapons shot together: the steel meets in the middle of his body and the blood stood still, unsure from which wound to flow, until at one moment a flood of gore drove out both spears, split his life, and dispersed death into the wounds." (Book 3, 586-592) These excerpts (and others like them) not only remind us of the epics and their gory colorful detail that we have grown to love, but also, in my opinion, surpass the greatness of the older epics we have read.
Lucan's "exquisite" death scenes definitely are something else. Like the death of Catus, they are lovingly illustrated down to the last gory detail, and at the same time, they seem almost absurd.
Like both Homer and Virgil, Lucan shows throughout his work how society values younger life, and would rather not see it perish in combat. In book four, a roman solder is cut down while valiently fighting. In that scene is father, who is there as a mentor, but not to fight due to his age(much like Nestor), is heartbroken. In a powerful, dramatic response, the soldier's father decides that he should end his life. He proceeds to stab himself in his guts while he watches his son dying. In order to insure that he dies before his son, as is natural, he falls into the sea to drown. This poignant scene highlights just how much the ancient authors valued youth.
I like this comparison. The Romans, more so than the Greeks I think, are very dramatic when things don't work out quite the way they want. They always seem to be throwing themselves on to swords and such as a way of both expressing and ending pain. Silly, don't you think?
I also noticed this. I looked at the notes in the back of the book for this scene and saw that in Roman society there is a great fear for one's child to die before them. I would agree that Roman and Greek society valued youth, but I would also go further to say that although they did value and admire youth, to be old and mature in that society seems as though it is almost an honor.
To me, Lucan seems very different from Homer and Virgil. The structure and telling of the story has a very different tone. It is much less fantastical and places more emphasis on the non-fiction of it all. This became immediately evident with the exclusion of invoking the muses, as both Homer and Virgil do. Also, I have found the lack of gods in this tale to be quite a change, somewhat refreshing even. While the gods are referred to, they are absent from the plot. With that said, there are aspects that reflect traditional epic influence, such as the use of cataloging, the knowledge of the audience, and much of the structure of the writing. Additionally, Caesar's trouble when traveling by water in Book 5 reminded me of the woes faced by heroes in the other epics that we have read. I really find it interesting to see how the language of poetry from antiquity has changed, from Homer to Lucan and everybody in between.
I agree with Lucan, that it is nice that the gods are less directly mentioned. I think that it shows the possible weakening of religion at the time. I also think that it portrays Ceasar as being slightly sacriligous. There are moments, like the crossing of the sea, where he seems to challenge the gods as opposed to worship them. In Homeric times, that would definitly end with Ceasar at the bottom of the sea.
Exactly, Jeremy! In Vergil, too, a reader can predict that someone will be successful (e.g., in the ship races or in the archery contest) whenever they direct a prayer to the gods, and a godless person like the cruel Mezentius is clearly doomed from the start. In Lucan, however, Caesar and his followers constantly disregard the gods, and noting bad happens. His epic shows a world that has lost its moral bearings.
Even though it isn't exactly the same as Homer, Lucan uses extremely detailed and lyrical descriptions to convey meaning. When Homer consistently uses similes and epithets, these seem to be miniature versions of Lucan's extended descriptions. An example of a moving passage is when the Romans attack Missilia by sea and Lucan writes, "Deep blood foams in the water, the waves are chocked by clotted gore and the ships... some sank, half-dead, into the vast deep, and drank the sea mixed with their own blood; other, while still drawing breath in a struggle with death." (Book 3, line 573-578). The excessive detail of humans dying in warfare, drinking the massive amounts of blood pouring into the sea, causes the reader to experience an overwhelming emotional response to the text, specifically the battle scenes. This is surprising because again, because I was apprehensive to start another epic that was based on war but surprisingly enough, Lucan keeps you intrigued just like Homer does.
I would disagree with the opinion that Lucan is more lyrical than Homer or even Virgil. Where Lucan's writing seems more dense and random, while there were plenty of passages in the Odyssey, particularly during his return that flowed very well. Much of this may be the translation however, or that Civil War was intended for the highly educated
Within Lucan's Civil War, there are many evident similarities, as well as differences to other epics we have read. I think the most prevalent difference is the style of writing. Although Lucan uses many descriptions throughout his epic, it is not quite what I would describe as Homeristic. Within the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid we see the gods directly involved in the mortals' lives (Aphrodite saving Aeneas, the wrath of Poseidon toward Odysseus) however, in Pharsalia, the gods are simply depicted as the Moon, the Sun, and the Ocean, as well as brief allusions to well-known stories. However, this is a great difference in how these epics were designed. Furthermore, because Pharsalia is more of a historical text rather than fantastical text, the general tone of the writing is what I would describe as less extravagant and exciting. Also, it may simply be the version of this translation, but as discussed in class Pharsalia was written to be enjoyed by the upper class, whereas Homer's epics were more for anyone from village to village. There are, however, throughout Pharsalia, many different allusions to the Iliad and the Odyssey, as well as many other well-known epics that we haven't discussed in class. In Book 2, line 456 there is an allusion to the storm launched by Aeolus in the Aeneid. In Book 2, line 591, there is an allusion to the Golden Fleece and Jason stealing it. Even more prevalent than those two examples, is at the start of Book 3 when Julia comes to Magnus in a dream, which is scene throughout the Iliad and the Odyssey. Lastly, another reference to the Iliad is found in Book 3, lines 285-290 regarding Agamemnon and the Trojan war. Furthermore, Pharsalia is reminiscent of the other epics in its use of symbols and omens, such as bird signs, the likeness of a great warrior to a lion, and trees similes.
I agree with what you say about the difference in style although the audiences may have been of a more similar stature than you imagine them to be. Regardless whether Homer was a traveling bard or a bard that had steady employment, like Phemios or Demodocus in the Odyssey, he probably sung mostly in the palaces of local Greek kings. So his audience would have been these kings and their courtiers, just like Lucan's were the emperor Nero and his courtiers. The difference in style may have more to do with the fact that Lucan is trying to be a "learned poet" (in Latin: poeta doctus), and so he rarely uses the most common names for anything, and he constantly alludes to earlier poetry and myths that would have been well-known to his contemporary audience, but not necessarily to someone who hasn't read a whole lot of Greek and Latin poetry.
Lucan's civil war reads extremely differently from the Iliad and the Odyssey, this could be primarily because of the translator being different in Civil War than Fagles in The Odyssey or the Iliad. Despite a more halting and less poetic prose than in previous epics, the most similar passage was in book 2, regarding both Caesar, and Pompey's forces. They were both traditional catalogues, though Caesar's included more metaphors, and followed the formula of listing an area, briefly describing it's defining geographic features (rocky, mountainous, or fields) then listing heroes or in this case significant warriors from most of the areas. This serves the same purpose that it did for the audience of the Odyssey and the Iliad, and that is for the audience to identify with those going to war, in Homer's epics however, it was to feel pride, Lucan's Civil War takes a much more somber tone because of the tragic connotations of a civil war
Both of these catalogues may also serve as a kind of mental map. The catalogue of Caesar's troops lists all the Gallic tribes that are now deserted by the legions that used to be stationed in their territory. The list of Pompey's troops covers all the areas in the Eastern Mediterranean that Pompey took back from Mithridates, the King of Pontos, and then reorganized.
What struck me in particular about both of these catalogues is how frequently they mention the main rivers as the most significant (or maybe best known?) geographic feature.
Professor-- I have been wondering about rivers for awhile now. They seem immensely important to both the Romans and Trojans. The river god himself rises up against Achilles in book 21 of the Iliad. In both Virgil and Lucan, as you mention, a precedence is placed on rivers. I know that rivers also pivotal roles in the lives of the Ancient Mesopotamians and Egyptians. Is this because they were sources of life in the ancient world? Or is there something else going on?
Lucan’s Civil War reacts to the older epics in a variety of ways in the given reading. In book 3, around lines 169-297, there is a long passage that catalogues the forces that make up Pompey’s army. I found this analogous to the catalogue of the ships in Homer’s Iliad, because both serve to emphasize the size of each respective army. A little later in Book 3 I picked up on a powerful call for peace in Lucan’s poetry in the instance of Caesar confronting the people of Massilia who say; "'To your civil war we give our tears and our withdrawal. Let sacred wounds be handled by no alien hand'" (313-315)”. The Massilian’s simply refuse to be implicated in the war, but Caesar doesn’t really give them a choice in the matter. Another instance in this reading that jumped out at me was in Book 6 when Caesar had marched to Brundisium and was sailing across the Adriatic. Like in the Odyssey when Odysseus sailed from Calypso's island, there is a brutal storm that causes some trauma. I find this to be a clear parallel, but am not entirely sure how to interpret it. Caesar is painted to be an over-ambitious character it seems, and his nearly drowning while at sea appears to be a lesson of hubris; even with all his ambition he’s still subject to the elements.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the cataloging of troops, Lucan also has a simliar, but unique battle scene. The naval battle that takes place in book 3 features all of the blood, guts, and gore that I have come to expect from epics. In fact, Lucan set a new precedent. Not only are heroes speared in the back, they also get one in the front. If that weren't enough, the spears meet in the middle and the blood, being confused and all, is forced to erupt from both wounds simultaneously in a spray of crimson only paralleled in Anime and Battle Royale.
DeleteJacob, you picked one of my favorite scenes! Where Vergil tampers down the gore, Lucan really ramps it up again, so much so, indeed, that it becomes ridiculous.
DeleteI loved the gory scenes! Ridiculous yes, but it made it so much more interesting. I don't like Lucan as much as Virgil, but I do like his twist on the harsh battle scenes. I think it is done this way to expose the ridiculousness of the war and in a inverse way,advocate peace.
DeleteI forgot about the blood and guts! That's always a mainstay of any good epic. Keeps the audience happy and all. Lucan definitely utilizes that.
DeleteI have really enjoyed the gory scenes in Lucan. These scenes really grab my attention and keep me interested while a (possibly otherwise boring to read) battle plays out.
DeleteIt seems to me that the depiction of the gore is more and more detailed as we move away from traditional epics. Homer had his fair share. Virgil included some with some more realistic detail. Finally, Lucan includes a lot of gore with immense detail.
DeleteYou're interpretation of his drowning due to hubris is really interesting. Though you didn't write it, this is a very clear correlation to Odysseus' misfortune. Perhaps, though Lucan is held to some historical accuracy, this is a reference, and compliment to Caesar's similarities to the Great Tactition
DeleteNewton's Third Law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I raise this law merely to illustrate that what is true for the universe seems to also hold true for epics. Lucan rails incessantly against the horrors of the Roman Civil War throughout these first chapters, asking again and again why such a thing must befall Rome. This is a far cry from what I imagine Homer did while writing the Iliad. Relaxing on a pile of slaves he likely merely shrugged and grinned as he composed the lines where Agamemnon slaughters a Trojan who has surrendered and is begging for his life. I'm joking, but in all seriousness I don't think that Homer, Virgil, or Hesiod share any of Lucan's values. That said, it is clear that Lucan is building upon the foundations laid by his predecessors. Who could Caesar be except Achilles? He may be driven by Fortune, but is that really any different from Fate? The words, like the names, could be used interchangeably. Personally, I love Caesar and all of his war mongering. I don't care that its immoral. His statements and actions are what make the story interesting. I believe that Lucan did this intentionally and uses Caesar, the poster boy of conquerors, to illustrate what might be considered evil and wrong with them.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate how much you read into things. I don't know if I would personally connect Caesar and Achilles, but I suppose it is not that much of a stretch. Maybe I am just biased because I hate Caesar. And Lucan for that matter. (Not really, but kind of.) But I agree that Lucan is intentionally illustrating the corruption of Caesar and those alike. He definitely does so in a round about way, not unlike my theory of the extreme gore.
DeleteI think that the correlation at this point is highly put by chance. Im not too well versed in the entire history of the epic poem, but it seems to me that Homer kind of set the standard or mapwork of how to write a good epic. Seeing this many relations to what seems to be the original, may just be circumstance, but I find it hard to beleive that someone wouldnt have taken some inspiration from the great Homer. I think that the quality and readability also has diminished slightly, though this could also be a difference of translators.
ReplyDeleteYou are right about Homer's pervasive influence. In fact, it's so persuasive that it influences even an epic like Lucan's that, at first glance, tells a very different story. Part of Lucan's reaction is that he imitates certain stock scenes, such as the ship's catalogue, battle scenes, or the story of Hercules (a.k.a. Alcides) and Antaeus in book 5, which mirrors the story of Hercules killing the monster Cacus in Vergil's Aeneid. The other part is that he deliberately writes an anti-epic. Have you noticed evidence for that?
DeleteWe talked about in class briefly (I think I may have brought it up) about the concept of honor in Homer’s epics versus Virgil’s. In The Iliad, we saw a certain type of honor/warrior code which included things like; if someone is unarmed and pleading for their life, you don’t kill them. Other things also included guest friendship and gift giving, burial of the enemy’s dead and a declaration of lineage before fighting. (I think). And although these “codes of honor” are made known, they are also broken. Achilles and Menelaus are seen killing Trojans who are begging for mercy. Achilles drags Hector’s dead body around the Trojan walls for weeks before he lets them bury it.
ReplyDeleteIn The Aeneid, honor seems to be of greater importance because those that didn’t respect the “code” were eventually punished by death. Take the guy [Euralyus] who stole the helmet which later gives him away and he is killed. And Turnus too, when he takes the belt of Pallas, and Aeneas almost grants him life in the end as he begged at his knees, (honoring the code) but sees Pallas’ belt on Turnus’ armor and decides to kill him.
In Lucan’s civil war, the idea of honor is shown as much more important and a serious issue. One small example on page 45, Caesar speaks to Metellus , “Empty are the hopes of honourable death which you conceive: my hand will not polute itself with your slaughter, Mettelus; no office you hold will make you deserving of Caesar’s wrath.”
I noticed the honor component too! It's very interesting how it's differently represented through the three works, but they all have the same basic idea.
DeleteIts interesting how the idea of honor is evident in all the epics, yet slightly changes from one epic to another. Another interesting thing I noticed on the topic of honor was something that Caesar ordered his men to do: "...let them not in terror lie low in a coward's death: as they run away let them receive the weapon full in the breast."
DeleteHomer's influence is very present throughout Pharsalia. But rather manifesting itself in convenient and easy to identify technical characteristics (except for a few, like the catalogue in book 3), Lucan seems to utilize the themes and cultural ideas found in Homer's work. Honor, for example, is very prominent in the Iliad, the Odyssey and now Pharsalia. Lucan throws a new twist on it, of course (he really can't avoid it, Pharsalia is too politicaly charged to be as cut and dry as Homer's works), but the basic elements are there. However, this begs the question: is Lucan really using Homer for inspiration, or are they both just drawing upon common cultural ideals? The answer needn't be mutually exclusive, and we can't ignore the fact that Lucan definitely read Homer, but we should consider that before attributing everything to Homer's influence.
ReplyDeleteI noticed the similarity of the catalog too, which was likely written for the same reason. I believe this poem would have sections which were read orally. Thus, that section would once again serve as a shout out to the people of that area, although maybe they wouldn't want to be involved in this case.
DeleteTo answer your question, I think we need to keep in mind the situation in which Lucan had to write this epic. He wrote it under the pressure of the Roman Republic and the potential of imprisonment/execution for writing this epic. I believe that he had most certainly read Homer, and therefore may have been slightly influenced by Homer in that a lot of this epic poem is written in traditional epic style i.e. extended similes, catalogues, etc. However, as far as the question of the prevalent theme of honor found both in the Iliad and the Odyssey, as well as Pharsalia, I do believe it was simply a cultural ideal that found its way into these epics. Contrasting to the Iliad and the Odyssey though, where in those epics those characteristics were generally attributed to the heroes, rather than common folk, I believe that in Pharsalia, every Roman citizen operates on honor and is expected to act honorably, as were the Roman ideals.
DeleteOne of the most obvious ways in which Lucan is a reaction to older epics can be seen in its use of catalogues of forces, and the detailed descriptions of battle scenes. The scene which caught my attention most in the reading was the naval battle in book 3. Some excerpts follow: "Deep blood foams in the water, the waves are choked by the clotted gore and the ships, when hauled by iron chains thrown on board, are kept apart by crowds of corpses." (Book 3, line 572-575) "Catus fights, boldly holding on to Greek post, at one moment he is pieced in his back and chest alike by weapons shot together: the steel meets in the middle of his body and the blood stood still, unsure from which wound to flow, until at one moment a flood of gore drove out both spears, split his life, and dispersed death into the wounds." (Book 3, 586-592) These excerpts (and others like them) not only remind us of the epics and their gory colorful detail that we have grown to love, but also, in my opinion, surpass the greatness of the older epics we have read.
ReplyDeleteLucan's "exquisite" death scenes definitely are something else. Like the death of Catus, they are lovingly illustrated down to the last gory detail, and at the same time, they seem almost absurd.
DeleteLike both Homer and Virgil, Lucan shows throughout his work how society values younger life, and would rather not see it perish in combat. In book four, a roman solder is cut down while valiently fighting. In that scene is father, who is there as a mentor, but not to fight due to his age(much like Nestor), is heartbroken. In a powerful, dramatic response, the soldier's father decides that he should end his life. He proceeds to stab himself in his guts while he watches his son dying. In order to insure that he dies before his son, as is natural, he falls into the sea to drown. This poignant scene highlights just how much the ancient authors valued youth.
ReplyDeleteI like this comparison. The Romans, more so than the Greeks I think, are very dramatic when things don't work out quite the way they want. They always seem to be throwing themselves on to swords and such as a way of both expressing and ending pain. Silly, don't you think?
DeleteI also noticed this. I looked at the notes in the back of the book for this scene and saw that in Roman society there is a great fear for one's child to die before them. I would agree that Roman and Greek society valued youth, but I would also go further to say that although they did value and admire youth, to be old and mature in that society seems as though it is almost an honor.
DeleteTo me, Lucan seems very different from Homer and Virgil. The structure and telling of the story has a very different tone. It is much less fantastical and places more emphasis on the non-fiction of it all. This became immediately evident with the exclusion of invoking the muses, as both Homer and Virgil do. Also, I have found the lack of gods in this tale to be quite a change, somewhat refreshing even. While the gods are referred to, they are absent from the plot. With that said, there are aspects that reflect traditional epic influence, such as the use of cataloging, the knowledge of the audience, and much of the structure of the writing. Additionally, Caesar's trouble when traveling by water in Book 5 reminded me of the woes faced by heroes in the other epics that we have read. I really find it interesting to see how the language of poetry from antiquity has changed, from Homer to Lucan and everybody in between.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Lucan, that it is nice that the gods are less directly mentioned. I think that it shows the possible weakening of religion at the time. I also think that it portrays Ceasar as being slightly sacriligous. There are moments, like the crossing of the sea, where he seems to challenge the gods as opposed to worship them. In Homeric times, that would definitly end with Ceasar at the bottom of the sea.
DeleteExactly, Jeremy! In Vergil, too, a reader can predict that someone will be successful (e.g., in the ship races or in the archery contest) whenever they direct a prayer to the gods, and a godless person like the cruel Mezentius is clearly doomed from the start. In Lucan, however, Caesar and his followers constantly disregard the gods, and noting bad happens. His epic shows a world that has lost its moral bearings.
DeleteEven though it isn't exactly the same as Homer, Lucan uses extremely detailed and lyrical descriptions to convey meaning. When Homer consistently uses similes and epithets, these seem to be miniature versions of Lucan's extended descriptions. An example of a moving passage is when the Romans attack Missilia by sea and Lucan writes, "Deep blood foams in the water, the waves are chocked by clotted gore and the ships... some sank, half-dead, into the vast deep, and drank the sea mixed with their own blood; other, while still drawing breath in a struggle with death." (Book 3, line 573-578). The excessive detail of humans dying in warfare, drinking the massive amounts of blood pouring into the sea, causes the reader to experience an overwhelming emotional response to the text, specifically the battle scenes. This is surprising because again, because I was apprehensive to start another epic that was based on war but surprisingly enough, Lucan keeps you intrigued just like Homer does.
ReplyDeleteI would disagree with the opinion that Lucan is more lyrical than Homer or even Virgil. Where Lucan's writing seems more dense and random, while there were plenty of passages in the Odyssey, particularly during his return that flowed very well. Much of this may be the translation however, or that Civil War was intended for the highly educated
DeleteWithin Lucan's Civil War, there are many evident similarities, as well as differences to other epics we have read.
ReplyDeleteI think the most prevalent difference is the style of writing. Although Lucan uses many descriptions throughout his epic, it is not quite what I would describe as Homeristic. Within the Iliad, Odyssey, and Aeneid we see the gods directly involved in the mortals' lives (Aphrodite saving Aeneas, the wrath of Poseidon toward Odysseus) however, in Pharsalia, the gods are simply depicted as the Moon, the Sun, and the Ocean, as well as brief allusions to well-known stories. However, this is a great difference in how these epics were designed. Furthermore, because Pharsalia is more of a historical text rather than fantastical text, the general tone of the writing is what I would describe as less extravagant and exciting. Also, it may simply be the version of this translation, but as discussed in class Pharsalia was written to be enjoyed by the upper class, whereas Homer's epics were more for anyone from village to village.
There are, however, throughout Pharsalia, many different allusions to the Iliad and the Odyssey, as well as many other well-known epics that we haven't discussed in class. In Book 2, line 456 there is an allusion to the storm launched by Aeolus in the Aeneid. In Book 2, line 591, there is an allusion to the Golden Fleece and Jason stealing it. Even more prevalent than those two examples, is at the start of Book 3 when Julia comes to Magnus in a dream, which is scene throughout the Iliad and the Odyssey. Lastly, another reference to the Iliad is found in Book 3, lines 285-290 regarding Agamemnon and the Trojan war. Furthermore, Pharsalia is reminiscent of the other epics in its use of symbols and omens, such as bird signs, the likeness of a great warrior to a lion, and trees similes.
I agree with what you say about the difference in style although the audiences may have been of a more similar stature than you imagine them to be. Regardless whether Homer was a traveling bard or a bard that had steady employment, like Phemios or Demodocus in the Odyssey, he probably sung mostly in the palaces of local Greek kings. So his audience would have been these kings and their courtiers, just like Lucan's were the emperor Nero and his courtiers. The difference in style may have more to do with the fact that Lucan is trying to be a "learned poet" (in Latin: poeta doctus), and so he rarely uses the most common names for anything, and he constantly alludes to earlier poetry and myths that would have been well-known to his contemporary audience, but not necessarily to someone who hasn't read a whole lot of Greek and Latin poetry.
DeleteLucan's civil war reads extremely differently from the Iliad and the Odyssey, this could be primarily because of the translator being different in Civil War than Fagles in The Odyssey or the Iliad. Despite a more halting and less poetic prose than in previous epics, the most similar passage was in book 2, regarding both Caesar, and Pompey's forces. They were both traditional catalogues, though Caesar's included more metaphors, and followed the formula of listing an area, briefly describing it's defining geographic features (rocky, mountainous, or fields) then listing heroes or in this case significant warriors from most of the areas. This serves the same purpose that it did for the audience of the Odyssey and the Iliad, and that is for the audience to identify with those going to war, in Homer's epics however, it was to feel pride, Lucan's Civil War takes a much more somber tone because of the tragic connotations of a civil war
ReplyDeleteBoth of these catalogues may also serve as a kind of mental map. The catalogue of Caesar's troops lists all the Gallic tribes that are now deserted by the legions that used to be stationed in their territory. The list of Pompey's troops covers all the areas in the Eastern Mediterranean that Pompey took back from Mithridates, the King of Pontos, and then reorganized.
DeleteWhat struck me in particular about both of these catalogues is how frequently they mention the main rivers as the most significant (or maybe best known?) geographic feature.
Professor--
DeleteI have been wondering about rivers for awhile now. They seem immensely important to both the Romans and Trojans. The river god himself rises up against Achilles in book 21 of the Iliad. In both Virgil and Lucan, as you mention, a precedence is placed on rivers. I know that rivers also pivotal roles in the lives of the Ancient Mesopotamians and Egyptians. Is this because they were sources of life in the ancient world? Or is there something else going on?