A blog for Willamette University's class CLAS 171 "Love and War, Gods and Heroes: Greek and Roman Epic Poetry." Used for discussions of the epics of Homer, Hesiod, Vergil, and Lucan.
Monday, March 12, 2012
Odyssey, Books 13-16
What is your favorite episode in books 13-16 of the Odyssey, and why?
(response and 2 comments on classmates' posts due on Tues., March 13, 2012, before class)
My favorite episode in these books was in book 16, when Odysseus and Telemachus are finally reunited in Eumaeus' hut. This was a touching, poignant scene. The epic retardation up until this point helped to build the emotions of this long awaited scene. Furthermore, Homer's descriptions are of the kind that cause joy in the audience. Up until this point, the Odyssey (and Iliad) have focused very little on happiness. Instead these epics have focued on hardship and glory, but not the happiness associated with family. It was truly refreshing to read of a happy scene in the Odyssey. It is also interesting to see how Homer's message has changed. I believe this scene shows how Homer has changed his beliefs to value family and life more than glory in battle.
I like the idea that this is the first real sign of happiness for Odysseus. Because all though he has had many miserable experiences and some that some of us would consider paradise (as we discussed in class), this is Odysseus' goal and the first time we truly see him happy.
This too was one of my favorite parts in the whole book. Also that as they plan to kill the suitors and map out how they will go about it, which is mostly Odysseus speaking, it is awesome to hear Telemachus respond with just as much intelligence.
My favorite book out of this reading was book 16 "Father and Son." I liked this book because it seemed as though we had finally reached the true turning point in the story. Not only had Odysseus and his son finally been reunited after all this time, but a plan started to solidify how all the suitors were going to be dealt with and how all of Ithaca was going to returned to its rightful ruler. I especially enjoyed reading this episode because we were able to watch a awesome team of war tacticians start working together towards winning Ithaca back (Odysseus, Telemachus and Athena). Finally, I liked this book because Homer did a good job of bonding the reader even more so with the protagonists of the story, and as they went to sleep with courage and confidence for the day to come, we also were able to put down the book at that last page of "Father and Son" with the same feelings flowing through ourselves.
I also posted about the teamwork of the father son combination. This is an exciting turning point in the story. Although we all know the reputation of Odysseus we will get to see what Telemachus' claim to fame will be, and what the two can accomplish.
I agree that there it's pretty cool to read about their formulating a plan; the wisest of the Greeks, his son, and a Goddess of strategy. Three great minds working together against a bunch of fattened suitors who wait unsuspecting... For me at least this speaks to an overarching theme of brains over brawn's. Classic!
I agree. I felt that even though some of this reading was heavy on the epic retardation, you really get a sense of the joy of vengeance that goes into such careful and brilliant strategizing.
I think it is safe to say that the best part for me in these books was the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus. It seemed to be that everything throughout these books was just a lead up to this very moment, and it didn't disappoint. This seems to be one of the biggest episode in all of the Odyssey, and a lot of emphasis has been put on the relationship between these two. Not only is it very significant to the story because of the background behind it, but the just reading this scene by itself can truly show its importance. Not only is it one of my favorite reads of the poem thus far, but it seems to be a good setup for what is to come. The suitors are still a problem, and we will get to see a father son team against this evil.
Its kind of like a twisted old school soap opera/sitcom moment. Boy meets long lost dad-tearful embrace, make plans to have some good ol' father/son rampaging/bonding moments
I really enjoy this section of the book because it also does a good deal to highlight how much telemachus has matured. Odysseus takes his input into consideration, which is saying something as Odysseus is the wisest Greek alive.
Jeremy, your comment on Telemachus' maturing is right on target, I think. What we perceive as epic retardation may be needed in Homer's mind to show us that Telemachus is ready to meet his dad and tackle the suitors together. We may need to focus on this some more in class.
I agree. I think it also shows how similar Odysseus and Telemachus are, which is interesting considering Odysseus' absence in Telemachus' upbringing. I also like how they are immediately thrown together to fight off the suitors without any real time yet to get to know one another. The immediate trust they have for one another it touching.
This reading assignment was by far the most tedious for me. The epic retardation made some of this nearly unbearable; between the erroneous and elaborate lies that Odysseus weaves about his time in Egypt and his alias as the beggar, I could hardly keep my eyes open. However, the last of the books proved much more entertaining with the reunion of father and son. Add in the building suspense of a plan against the suitors, and you've got a semi-exciting read! There is much foreshadow to the inevitable slaughter of the suitors as well, which is exciting.
I agree that Odysseus' Egyptian aside was extremely tedious and kind of stupid on his part. The best lies are short, simple, don't attract attention to the liar and are easy to remember. His story violates all of those rules. People are going to remember a high-rollng son of a king who has fantastic adventures all over the civilized world, especially one who's story and identity have never been heard before or corroborated by an outside source. He should have just stayed an impovershed soldier.
Ohhhh my goodness! The epic retardation before the reunion is killer. I was absolutely bored as hell during some parts.
To answer your question Pseudolus, I think part of it is to show Odysseus's self control. He has been gone twenty years from his homeland, but as the gods and dead heroes like Agamemnon warn, Odysseus must be sneaky in returning home. And so the books mirror his long grueling wait to finally get his kingdom back.
I can easily see that you were all waiting for the reunion of father and son in book 16, and that definitely is a high point.
My question is, why does Homer think the other three books (13-15) are necessary? 50 pages of pure epic retardation seem a little extreme, even for a bard who was hoping to be fed a little longer.
Well said Dragon Slayer, but you failed to mention the extremely important history of the swineherd. Homer would be very disappointed in you for leaving out a detail that is so crucial to the story and themes presented in the Odyssey.
Wow, finally someone who noticed Eumaeus! I myself always loved to hear his background story. Any idea why Homer spends so much time with him? And why doesn't Odysseus reveal his identity to Eumaeus earlier? It's pretty clear that Eumaeus supports him.
I agree, for me the blog was not "what is your favorite part" as much as "what was bearable". This chunk of reading was very slow but it is setting up a very entertaining part of the Odyssey.
I agree, there were some parts of these books that were just completely unbearable due to the epic retardation. I found a large amount of these books to be boring and intolerable.
I completely agree. Although some parts of the beginning books were enjoyable to read, they don't really compare in my mind to Book 16. They definitely act as a form of epic retardation, especially with Theoclymenus, the prophet who enters the story in Book 15. This made the reading difficult to get into, but maybe that is what made Book 16 feel even more epic and moving?
My favorite part for me was right before the meeting of Odysseus and Telemachus. I thought it was very funny how Eumaeus is praising his lost king to his king. Odysseus just encourages the compliments. Though I also thought is was interesting that the same person who extolled every virtue of Odysseus, has no confidence that he is even still alive. No matter what stories or tales Odysseus tells him, he seems to have no belief he could survive his years abroad. However, we also get to find out exactly what happened as Odysseus left Troy.
You are absolutely right about the wonderful dramatic irony of the scene where Eumaeus praises Odysseus right into his face without recognizing him. In fact, the entire Eumaeus book (14) is full of such scenes.
Regarding your last sentence, though, I'd like to ask you to look again. Didn't we learn what happened to Odysseus after Troy more accurately in the stories he told the Phaeacians (books 9-12)?
In fact, I find it ironical that Odysseus' lies about himself in books 13-14 are far more realistic and credible than the apparently true fairytale adventures he talks about when he is among the Phaeacians.
My favorite part of this reading was experiencing the interaction between Odysseus and Athena in book 13. It was so much fun to see these two, both master stategists in their respective realms, plot and plan together. Their personalities feed off of eachother, with Odysseus calling Athena "my bright-eyed one" and Athena describing her attraction to Odysseus. Seeing Athena's genuine affection and respect for him also makes me respect Odysseus more and, at the same time, humanizes Athena, making her a much more sympathetic character. They seem to be treating eachother as equals here, not as goddess and worshipper. It's very apparent that these two comrades are going to make one hell of a plan together and I can't wait to see how it all plays out.
I agree, the scene where the goddess and her favorite human finally see eye to eye, is beautiful. I also enjoyed the dramatic irony when Athena is leading Odysseus on for a while and allowing him to try to trick her with one of his Cretan Tales, while we as the audience can amuse ourselves with her.
I agree with Emily, that besides Book 16 Father and Son, Book 13 with the interaction of Pallas Athena and Odysseus the cool tactician is most enjoyable. It was cool that this set of books at least began and ended with interesting encounters. I feel like with how we read the Iliad and how it streamed into the Odyssey, Athena has always been there for Odysseus, and to have the reunite almost equals the joy of the father son reunion. It was playful and cunning, the two masters of the art playing tricks on each other. In contrast to the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus which was more emotional and heartfelt.
I also enjoyed the interaction between Athena and Odysseus. It goes to show how wise and respected Odysseus is, that a god treats him so well. On the other hand, it does often seem that Athena gives Odysseus many of his good ideas.
Along with the gods treating him so well, I also noticed that at one point Telemachus actually asked Odysseus at one point, before know that he was his own father, if Odysseus was a god. It seems to me that he is one of the closer humans to being a pseudo-god.
Jeremy, Athena does seem to give Odysseus and Telemachus more than a little boost. On the other hand, she also tells Odysseus that _he_ has to come up with a plan to defeat the suitors. Apparently, that plan (sneak in as a beggar, remove all weapons from the room) is indeed all his own. At this point, we don't know yet how it's going to develop further, but then, neither may Odysseus himself.
I thought that Odysseus' planning and time with Eumaeus was the best part because it shows just how crafty he really is. It also sets up and shows just how angry he really is and foreshadows the impending rampage of Odysseus and his triumphant final comeback. i kind of also felt like other than those parts, the rest was kind of disposable for the rest of the plot.
Although I thought a lot of the books were a bit tedious as well, I do not think they were perhaps pointless, because they did show how cunningly Odysseus was is seeing how loyal his servants were to him even after he had been gone so long and was thought dead.
I am with Jorden, book 16 is the most important because it foreshadows Odysseus rampage and reclaiming of his kingdom, while having father, son reunion and battle planing.
I agree, it gives us another chance to see the cunning behavior of Odysseus, but besides that this falls into the same category as the other books which is pretty slow and unnecessary
My favorite part was when Telemachus say Odysseus not disguised and was shocked at first. It really showed how all Telemachus new of his dad was what had been told of him. It was really cool seeing father and son reunited because it was, after all, what Odysseus had wanted since leaving Troy. Now we get to see Telemachus fight off all the suitors with his father and make his own legend
This was the scene I was originally going to talk about but so many people chose it I went with something different. I like that you mention that Telemachus had never really known his father. This really ups the ante of the scene.
I was amazed that Telemachus actually did recognize his father. after all he had been gone for about 20 years. I feel like even the stores he may have been told of him wouldn't have made it possible for him to recognize him.
I thought this scene was interesting, because while Telemachus has been sailing around looking for his father, or any news of him, he still doesn't recognize him at first. How are you supposed to find someone when you don't even know what they look like?
I was a bit taken aback by this scene. If this kinda thing were to appear in a modern day story, such as a high budget film, it would seem so ridiculous. cdsmith is right, Telemachus probably wouldn't recognize his father and vise versa. Furthermore, how excited would he be to see his father? They don't know each other. It seems crazy that Telemachus, as a son, could love his father who has been estranged for the entirety of his life.
I really liked the scene at the end of book 16 when Penelope confronts the suitors in defense of her son. Up until this point she hasn't seemed to do very much about the problem of all the men other than put off choosing one of them to marry. At this point though she is described as the "luster of women" while she berates Antinous. Although in the end she does end up simply going back to her room to weep, I feel that at this time a woman speaking down to powerful men was rare enough to merit note.
Penelope over hears death threats directed at her son and comes down the stairs. "How dare you disgrace this house? How could you possibly consider taking such terrible actions?" Penelope asks the suitors, appealing to their humanity. "Beautiful Penelope, we would never do such a thing! Why, if anyone tried it he would surely taste my spear!" Eurymachus replies, winking at his companions. "Oh, carry on with the courting then while I go cry." Penelope departs. Ridiculous. You would think that she would have refused them after that.
I really enjoyed this seen as well because it finally shows Penelope standing up for herself and her son. I feel as though the whole book Penelope has simply been kind of withdrawn into herself and not really cared about the outside world or her suitors, so it was great to finally see her strength. It was also great to see you stand up for her son, especially a woman standing up to all these men.
I agree with Gabrielle and Ashland, this is a powerful scene. I think Jacob forgets how powerless Penelope and her family are in the face of the suitors' abuse of hospitality. There is no police they can call, and Telemachus' appeal to the community for help has failed. Before this scene, Penelope has resisted the suitors too, but by necessity it was always in a covered way, e.g., by secretly unraveling the funeral shroud for Laertes that she was working on and thus holding the suitors off longer. This scene represents the first time that Penelope openly scold the suitors and tells them she's seen through their game.
I also enjoyed this scene. It showed that Penelope still had some power over the suitors, even though they have been occupying her house for so many years, and are close to taking over her husband's kingdom (and possibly killing her child).
Again, this was definitely enjoyable for me to read as well. Finally we see Penelope come into her own and stand up for her family against the suitors. Up until this point, it has seemed really odd to me that she hasn't really put up a fight in the book against these men who occupy her kingdom. Having her denounce Antinuous gave me a sense of relief and made her more appealing as a character.
The best portion of these books only lasted about a page. After leaving the company of Menelaus, Telemachus and Peisistratus quickly approach Nestor and his court. Perhaps at this point Homer feels it is necessary to get the story moving. Or maybe Telemachus is slightly wiser than his father. Regardless, after reminding (sugar-coating) Peisistratus that the they have become very close friends (lovers?), Telemachus informs him that he can't really spare any more delays and thus must avoid Nestor all together. I found this to be extremely amusing. I can just see the entire scene playing out on a big screen. Peisistratus' head droops as he realizes that his father is an old boar who will talk anyone's ear off. Every time we hear from Nestor what begins as advice ends up being a cane-shaking digression. Thankfully, we avoid that on this occasion and because of this the Kingdom of Ithaca may be saved yet.
I would say out of all these books my favorite scene is when Telemachus returns from Sparta and goes to Eumaeus' hut which is when Odysseus sees his son for the first time. I really liked this scene because it was really interesting how Odysseus refrained from giving himself up to Telemachus even though he was so emotional from seeing his son for the first time. It is a good example of his self control. I also thought it was great how as soon as Eumaeus leaves, the father and son come together and instead of really getting to know one another right off the bat, they instead spend their time plotting against the suitors. It was definitely a different look at father and son reunited for the first time than I would have imagined, but still touching.
My favorite part of these books was when after Odysseus revealed himself to Telemachus when the two of them plan to overthrow the suiters. I fell like this brings more of Odysseus's former glory back as well as reminding us that that he he is still an extreme intelligent man.
I've been thinking about Athena's role in this story and what it could mean. When Odysseus gets back to Ithaca, Athena appears in the form of a boy and gives Odysseus a disguise. As Athena is the goddess of wisdom and Odysseus is supposed to be the most clever of the Achaeans, it seems that the god is given credit for the actions of the hero. This is similar to gods giving courage to captains warring in the Iliad, who then give courage to their men.
My favorite book from the reading, which many others also picked, was book 16. This book is where we can see the two threads that guide the plot of the Odyssey (Odysseus' journey and Telemachus' search for answers) interweave and start to lead us to the main conflict of the story, Odysseus' inevitable confrontation with the suitors. We no longer have to flip from one thread of the story to another, father and son, together at last, can work to free their home from the suitor's grasp.
Another thing I enjoyed from the reading was the interaction between the disguised Odysseus and Eumaeus. Eumaeus was practically Odysseus' adopted little brother, and even he is unable to see through Odysseus' disguise, and yet he houses and feeds Odysseus and talks highly of him. I believe this interaction is helpful because it shows that not all of his people have turned against him in his absence, he still has allies in Ithaca, that the suitors haven't completely corrupted his kingdom.
I also enjoyed book 16. It is significant that Odysseus and Telemachus finally reconnect and plan an act of revenge. In addition to highlighting Odysseus' glory, it shows that Telemachus is growing up in his fathers footsteps. The fact that he survives a heroic journey with the assistance of Athena, only to outsmart the suitors, reunite with his father and hatch a revenge plan shows how him and Odysseus are very alike in their temperament, goals and attributes.
In my opinion my opinion the best book out of books 13 to 16 was book 16 when Telemachus returns from Sparta and see's his son Odysseus for the first time in Eumaeus' hut. This is an extremely powerful scene as shown in Homer's descriptions and unique composition of the scene. This is also a nice change of pace from the violence and the war that took place in the Iliad, and it seems that Homer is now focusing more on happiness than despair.
It looks like most of the class wrote about book 16. With that in mind, I shall write what I like about book 14, "The Loyal Swineherd". I really enjoyed how humbly Eumaeus treated Odysseus, who was disguised as an old beggar/soldier. Eumaeus, while constantly denying that Odysseus will return, laments his master's absence. When bringing the stranger, Odysseus, into his home, Eumaeus feeds him and treats him as well as he would treat anybody. I also enjoyed his rebellious attitude when, after telling the stranger about the situation with the suitors, he decides to slaughter one of the fattest pigs for he and his friends to feast on. I saw the seeds of a Marxist-styled class war when Eumaeus undermines the commands of the suitors. The problem I have with this book is that when the swineherder goes outside to sleep amongst his herd, Odysseus appreciates Eumaeus' devotion to his master's property (not out of love for his master)... After this chapter of bringing Odysseus down to the status of his swineherder, we are reminded about how the class system really works.
I'm glad that you appreciated the Eumaeus book as much as I do. You also see were the book's weak points are: Eumaeus is meant to be a model slave, I guess what you'd call an "Uncle Tom" character. It's interesting, of course, that his "nobility" is then explained with the fact that he's really a prince who's only fallen on hard time. The Greeks clearly didn't think that their slaves could have any ethics otherwise.
My favorite scene in these books is in book 13 when Poseidon realizes that Odysseus has made it home to Ithaca and asks Zeus to enact revenge. Zeus grants him permission to punish the Phaeacians by filling the prophecy referenced earlier in the story. THis results in him turning their returning ship into stone. The Phaeacians can now no longer offer assistance to wayward travelers like Odysseus. I think this is a very interesting scene for a number of reasons. First, it shows that there are limits to the traditional hospitality so important to Homer and intrinsic to the narrative of his epics. It also prolongs the epic nature of Odysseus. He cannot travel with ease; it seems everywhere he sets foot drama ensues. It is unfortunate that the Phaeacian prophecy was filled because we have really come to identify with the plight of lost seamen, but the fact that they spent their very last hospitable journey on Odysseus is significant.
Thanks for bringing this particular scene up! This part of the story reminded me of Heinzelmännchen in German fairy tales. These are little gnomes that do the humans' work for them at night until someone either becomes so curious that he/she tries to observes them or otherwise acknowledges their presence, e.g., by making them a present to thank them. The fact that the Phaeacians, after helping Odysseus, are now blocked from helping any other sailor means, just as the Heinzelmännchen stories, that fairy tale time is no over, and humans have to do their own work viz. save themselves.
Like the majority of people have already discussed, my favorite part was in book 16 where son and father are finally reunited. Immediately, when Homer suggests Eumaeus will tell Penelope about Telemachus's return, I began hypothesizing about whether or not Odysseus was finally going to take off his disguise since this was the first time he was alone with his son. This made me extremely anxious and excited for the potential for the story to finally take a turn by focusing on family and love. Like others have mentioned, the book so far has emphasized hardship so this was definitely a refreshing part of the book that made it even more effective and pleasurable to read. Afterwards, it was enjoyable to watch son and father in action, planning out how they were going to attack the suitors. Finally, what we have been waiting for! The idea of Odysseus disguising himself as a beggar and Telemachus hiding the weapons so the suitors cannot easily reach them, effectively sets up the scenes to follow which the reader can already imagine to be eventful and thrilling.
The episode that I found to be the best was the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus. This is because most of the book is foreshadowing this event. I think the best part of the reunion was the way that Odysseus was disguised and he knew he had met his son before Telemachus. I just liked it because it set up a unique way for them to reunite and the reunion that much better
Posted by John Mackay Mar 13, 8:47 AM It seems that everyone agrees that book 16 was the favorite, I'd like to add my vote to book 16 and Telemachus and Odysseus' reuniting. Though it has been implied and shown throughout the story that Telemachus is not fool and a generous young man, in this book and scene, we really get to appreciate how much like his father he is. Odysseus also shows his character well when he easily follows Athena's directions and doesn't reveal himself to his son immediately. Odysseus' dialogue, particularly with Eumaeus reminds me of the scene in Star Wars a New Hope when Obi Won scares off the sand people and Luke asks him about "Old Ben" Obi Won knows Luke refers to him but leads him on for a bit about the rumors surrounding "Old Ben." The scene is also like in episode V when Luke first meets Yoda.
Comments:
Kreed: I agree that the tone of the story changed into one of optimism and joy to some extent, but the main theme, revenge, is still very present. I think the Odyssey has not changed as much as many comments have implied and it is still not the most noble of stories
Emily: also, before Odysseus knows it is Athena on the shores, he still is on his guard even though he's just woken up and can't be sure of where he is. Athena and Odysseus have an interesting little duel of the minds, and Athena must feel similar to how Odysseus does in the presence of his son and those who mistake him.
My favorite episode in these books was in book 16, when Odysseus and Telemachus are finally reunited in Eumaeus' hut. This was a touching, poignant scene. The epic retardation up until this point helped to build the emotions of this long awaited scene. Furthermore, Homer's descriptions are of the kind that cause joy in the audience. Up until this point, the Odyssey (and Iliad) have focused very little on happiness. Instead these epics have focued on hardship and glory, but not the happiness associated with family. It was truly refreshing to read of a happy scene in the Odyssey. It is also interesting to see how Homer's message has changed. I believe this scene shows how Homer has changed his beliefs to value family and life more than glory in battle.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea that this is the first real sign of happiness for Odysseus. Because all though he has had many miserable experiences and some that some of us would consider paradise (as we discussed in class), this is Odysseus' goal and the first time we truly see him happy.
DeleteThis too was one of my favorite parts in the whole book. Also that as they plan to kill the suitors and map out how they will go about it, which is mostly Odysseus speaking, it is awesome to hear Telemachus respond with just as much intelligence.
DeleteTotally agree. Theres a line of epic retardation that has been violated. Very very violated
DeleteI normally try to refrain from using these kind of abbreviations, but Jorden's comment really makes me LOL.
DeleteMy favorite book out of this reading was book 16 "Father and Son." I liked this book because it seemed as though we had finally reached the true turning point in the story. Not only had Odysseus and his son finally been reunited after all this time, but a plan started to solidify how all the suitors were going to be dealt with and how all of Ithaca was going to returned to its rightful ruler. I especially enjoyed reading this episode because we were able to watch a awesome team of war tacticians start working together towards winning Ithaca back (Odysseus, Telemachus and Athena). Finally, I liked this book because Homer did a good job of bonding the reader even more so with the protagonists of the story, and as they went to sleep with courage and confidence for the day to come, we also were able to put down the book at that last page of "Father and Son" with the same feelings flowing through ourselves.
ReplyDeleteI also posted about the teamwork of the father son combination. This is an exciting turning point in the story. Although we all know the reputation of Odysseus we will get to see what Telemachus' claim to fame will be, and what the two can accomplish.
DeleteI agree that there it's pretty cool to read about their formulating a plan; the wisest of the Greeks, his son, and a Goddess of strategy. Three great minds working together against a bunch of fattened suitors who wait unsuspecting... For me at least this speaks to an overarching theme of brains over brawn's. Classic!
DeleteThe tactician triumvirate is awesome. They're basically the ancient Greek A-Team and they're going to wreak some havoc on those suitors.
DeleteI agree. I felt that even though some of this reading was heavy on the epic retardation, you really get a sense of the joy of vengeance that goes into such careful and brilliant strategizing.
DeleteI think it is safe to say that the best part for me in these books was the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus. It seemed to be that everything throughout these books was just a lead up to this very moment, and it didn't disappoint. This seems to be one of the biggest episode in all of the Odyssey, and a lot of emphasis has been put on the relationship between these two. Not only is it very significant to the story because of the background behind it, but the just reading this scene by itself can truly show its importance. Not only is it one of my favorite reads of the poem thus far, but it seems to be a good setup for what is to come. The suitors are still a problem, and we will get to see a father son team against this evil.
ReplyDeleteIts kind of like a twisted old school soap opera/sitcom moment. Boy meets long lost dad-tearful embrace, make plans to have some good ol' father/son rampaging/bonding moments
DeleteI really enjoy this section of the book because it also does a good deal to highlight how much telemachus has matured. Odysseus takes his input into consideration, which is saying something as Odysseus is the wisest Greek alive.
DeleteJeremy, your comment on Telemachus' maturing is right on target, I think. What we perceive as epic retardation may be needed in Homer's mind to show us that Telemachus is ready to meet his dad and tackle the suitors together. We may need to focus on this some more in class.
DeleteI agree. I think it also shows how similar Odysseus and Telemachus are, which is interesting considering Odysseus' absence in Telemachus' upbringing. I also like how they are immediately thrown together to fight off the suitors without any real time yet to get to know one another. The immediate trust they have for one another it touching.
DeleteThis reading assignment was by far the most tedious for me. The epic retardation made some of this nearly unbearable; between the erroneous and elaborate lies that Odysseus weaves about his time in Egypt and his alias as the beggar, I could hardly keep my eyes open.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the last of the books proved much more entertaining with the reunion of father and son. Add in the building suspense of a plan against the suitors, and you've got a semi-exciting read! There is much foreshadow to the inevitable slaughter of the suitors as well, which is exciting.
I agree that Odysseus' Egyptian aside was extremely tedious and kind of stupid on his part. The best lies are short, simple, don't attract attention to the liar and are easy to remember. His story violates all of those rules. People are going to remember a high-rollng son of a king who has fantastic adventures all over the civilized world, especially one who's story and identity have never been heard before or corroborated by an outside source. He should have just stayed an impovershed soldier.
DeleteOhhhh my goodness! The epic retardation before the reunion is killer. I was absolutely bored as hell during some parts.
DeleteTo answer your question Pseudolus, I think part of it is to show Odysseus's self control. He has been gone twenty years from his homeland, but as the gods and dead heroes like Agamemnon warn, Odysseus must be sneaky in returning home. And so the books mirror his long grueling wait to finally get his kingdom back.
I can easily see that you were all waiting for the reunion of father and son in book 16, and that definitely is a high point.
DeleteMy question is, why does Homer think the other three books (13-15) are necessary? 50 pages of pure epic retardation seem a little extreme, even for a bard who was hoping to be fed a little longer.
Well said Dragon Slayer, but you failed to mention the extremely important history of the swineherd. Homer would be very disappointed in you for leaving out a detail that is so crucial to the story and themes presented in the Odyssey.
DeleteOh, and Theresa: would you mind refraining from using inappropriate language on this educational blog?
DeleteWow, finally someone who noticed Eumaeus! I myself always loved to hear his background story. Any idea why Homer spends so much time with him? And why doesn't Odysseus reveal his identity to Eumaeus earlier? It's pretty clear that Eumaeus supports him.
DeleteI agree, for me the blog was not "what is your favorite part" as much as "what was bearable". This chunk of reading was very slow but it is setting up a very entertaining part of the Odyssey.
DeleteI agree, there were some parts of these books that were just completely unbearable due to the epic retardation. I found a large amount of these books to be boring and intolerable.
DeleteI completely agree. Although some parts of the beginning books were enjoyable to read, they don't really compare in my mind to Book 16. They definitely act as a form of epic retardation, especially with Theoclymenus, the prophet who enters the story in Book 15. This made the reading difficult to get into, but maybe that is what made Book 16 feel even more epic and moving?
DeleteMy favorite part for me was right before the meeting of Odysseus and Telemachus. I thought it was very funny how Eumaeus is praising his lost king to his king. Odysseus just encourages the compliments. Though I also thought is was interesting that the same person who extolled every virtue of Odysseus, has no confidence that he is even still alive. No matter what stories or tales Odysseus tells him, he seems to have no belief he could survive his years abroad. However, we also get to find out exactly what happened as Odysseus left Troy.
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right about the wonderful dramatic irony of the scene where Eumaeus praises Odysseus right into his face without recognizing him. In fact, the entire Eumaeus book (14) is full of such scenes.
DeleteRegarding your last sentence, though, I'd like to ask you to look again. Didn't we learn what happened to Odysseus after Troy more accurately in the stories he told the Phaeacians (books 9-12)?
In fact, I find it ironical that Odysseus' lies about himself in books 13-14 are far more realistic and credible than the apparently true fairytale adventures he talks about when he is among the Phaeacians.
My favorite part of this reading was experiencing the interaction between Odysseus and Athena in book 13. It was so much fun to see these two, both master stategists in their respective realms, plot and plan together. Their personalities feed off of eachother, with Odysseus calling Athena "my bright-eyed one" and Athena describing her attraction to Odysseus. Seeing Athena's genuine affection and respect for him also makes me respect Odysseus more and, at the same time, humanizes Athena, making her a much more sympathetic character. They seem to be treating eachother as equals here, not as goddess and worshipper. It's very apparent that these two comrades are going to make one hell of a plan together and I can't wait to see how it all plays out.
ReplyDeleteI agree, the scene where the goddess and her favorite human finally see eye to eye, is beautiful. I also enjoyed the dramatic irony when Athena is leading Odysseus on for a while and allowing him to try to trick her with one of his Cretan Tales, while we as the audience can amuse ourselves with her.
DeleteI agree with Emily, that besides Book 16 Father and Son, Book 13 with the interaction of Pallas Athena and Odysseus the cool tactician is most enjoyable. It was cool that this set of books at least began and ended with interesting encounters. I feel like with how we read the Iliad and how it streamed into the Odyssey, Athena has always been there for Odysseus, and to have the reunite almost equals the joy of the father son reunion. It was playful and cunning, the two masters of the art playing tricks on each other. In contrast to the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus which was more emotional and heartfelt.
ReplyDeleteI also enjoyed the interaction between Athena and Odysseus. It goes to show how wise and respected Odysseus is, that a god treats him so well. On the other hand, it does often seem that Athena gives Odysseus many of his good ideas.
DeleteAlong with the gods treating him so well, I also noticed that at one point Telemachus actually asked Odysseus at one point, before know that he was his own father, if Odysseus was a god. It seems to me that he is one of the closer humans to being a pseudo-god.
DeleteJeremy, Athena does seem to give Odysseus and Telemachus more than a little boost. On the other hand, she also tells Odysseus that _he_ has to come up with a plan to defeat the suitors. Apparently, that plan (sneak in as a beggar, remove all weapons from the room) is indeed all his own. At this point, we don't know yet how it's going to develop further, but then, neither may Odysseus himself.
DeleteI thought that Odysseus' planning and time with Eumaeus was the best part because it shows just how crafty he really is. It also sets up and shows just how angry he really is and foreshadows the impending rampage of Odysseus and his triumphant final comeback. i kind of also felt like other than those parts, the rest was kind of disposable for the rest of the plot.
ReplyDeleteRephrase, while he was plotting and reuniting was fine, but everything else was POINTLESS
DeleteAlthough I thought a lot of the books were a bit tedious as well, I do not think they were perhaps pointless, because they did show how cunningly Odysseus was is seeing how loyal his servants were to him even after he had been gone so long and was thought dead.
DeleteI am with Jorden, book 16 is the most important because it foreshadows Odysseus rampage and reclaiming of his kingdom, while having father, son reunion and battle planing.
DeleteI agree, it gives us another chance to see the cunning behavior of Odysseus, but besides that this falls into the same category as the other books which is pretty slow and unnecessary
DeleteMy favorite part was when Telemachus say Odysseus not disguised and was shocked at first. It really showed how all Telemachus new of his dad was what had been told of him. It was really cool seeing father and son reunited because it was, after all, what Odysseus had wanted since leaving Troy. Now we get to see Telemachus fight off all the suitors with his father and make his own legend
ReplyDeleteThis was the scene I was originally going to talk about but so many people chose it I went with something different. I like that you mention that Telemachus had never really known his father. This really ups the ante of the scene.
DeleteI was amazed that Telemachus actually did recognize his father. after all he had been gone for about 20 years. I feel like even the stores he may have been told of him wouldn't have made it possible for him to recognize him.
DeleteI thought this scene was interesting, because while Telemachus has been sailing around looking for his father, or any news of him, he still doesn't recognize him at first. How are you supposed to find someone when you don't even know what they look like?
DeleteI was a bit taken aback by this scene. If this kinda thing were to appear in a modern day story, such as a high budget film, it would seem so ridiculous. cdsmith is right, Telemachus probably wouldn't recognize his father and vise versa. Furthermore, how excited would he be to see his father? They don't know each other. It seems crazy that Telemachus, as a son, could love his father who has been estranged for the entirety of his life.
DeleteI really liked the scene at the end of book 16 when Penelope confronts the suitors in defense of her son. Up until this point she hasn't seemed to do very much about the problem of all the men other than put off choosing one of them to marry. At this point though she is described as the "luster of women" while she berates Antinous. Although in the end she does end up simply going back to her room to weep, I feel that at this time a woman speaking down to powerful men was rare enough to merit note.
ReplyDeletePenelope over hears death threats directed at her son and comes down the stairs. "How dare you disgrace this house? How could you possibly consider taking such terrible actions?" Penelope asks the suitors, appealing to their humanity. "Beautiful Penelope, we would never do such a thing! Why, if anyone tried it he would surely taste my spear!" Eurymachus replies, winking at his companions. "Oh, carry on with the courting then while I go cry." Penelope departs. Ridiculous. You would think that she would have refused them after that.
DeleteI really enjoyed this seen as well because it finally shows Penelope standing up for herself and her son. I feel as though the whole book Penelope has simply been kind of withdrawn into herself and not really cared about the outside world or her suitors, so it was great to finally see her strength. It was also great to see you stand up for her son, especially a woman standing up to all these men.
DeleteI agree with Gabrielle and Ashland, this is a powerful scene. I think Jacob forgets how powerless Penelope and her family are in the face of the suitors' abuse of hospitality. There is no police they can call, and Telemachus' appeal to the community for help has failed. Before this scene, Penelope has resisted the suitors too, but by necessity it was always in a covered way, e.g., by secretly unraveling the funeral shroud for Laertes that she was working on and thus holding the suitors off longer. This scene represents the first time that Penelope openly scold the suitors and tells them she's seen through their game.
DeleteI also enjoyed this scene. It showed that Penelope still had some power over the suitors, even though they have been occupying her house for so many years, and are close to taking over her husband's kingdom (and possibly killing her child).
DeleteAgain, this was definitely enjoyable for me to read as well. Finally we see Penelope come into her own and stand up for her family against the suitors. Up until this point, it has seemed really odd to me that she hasn't really put up a fight in the book against these men who occupy her kingdom. Having her denounce Antinuous gave me a sense of relief and made her more appealing as a character.
DeleteThe best portion of these books only lasted about a page. After leaving the company of Menelaus, Telemachus and Peisistratus quickly approach Nestor and his court. Perhaps at this point Homer feels it is necessary to get the story moving. Or maybe Telemachus is slightly wiser than his father. Regardless, after reminding (sugar-coating) Peisistratus that the they have become very close friends (lovers?), Telemachus informs him that he can't really spare any more delays and thus must avoid Nestor all together. I found this to be extremely amusing. I can just see the entire scene playing out on a big screen. Peisistratus' head droops as he realizes that his father is an old boar who will talk anyone's ear off. Every time we hear from Nestor what begins as advice ends up being a cane-shaking digression. Thankfully, we avoid that on this occasion and because of this the Kingdom of Ithaca may be saved yet.
ReplyDelete"Cane-shaking digression", that's brilliant!
DeleteI would say out of all these books my favorite scene is when Telemachus returns from Sparta and goes to Eumaeus' hut which is when Odysseus sees his son for the first time. I really liked this scene because it was really interesting how Odysseus refrained from giving himself up to Telemachus even though he was so emotional from seeing his son for the first time. It is a good example of his self control. I also thought it was great how as soon as Eumaeus leaves, the father and son come together and instead of really getting to know one another right off the bat, they instead spend their time plotting against the suitors. It was definitely a different look at father and son reunited for the first time than I would have imagined, but still touching.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite part of these books was when after Odysseus revealed himself to Telemachus when the two of them plan to overthrow the suiters. I fell like this brings more of Odysseus's former glory back as well as reminding us that that he he is still an extreme intelligent man.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about Athena's role in this story and what it could mean. When Odysseus gets back to Ithaca, Athena appears in the form of a boy and gives Odysseus a disguise. As Athena is the goddess of wisdom and Odysseus is supposed to be the most clever of the Achaeans, it seems that the god is given credit for the actions of the hero. This is similar to gods giving courage to captains warring in the Iliad, who then give courage to their men.
DeleteMy favorite book from the reading, which many others also picked, was book 16. This book is where we can see the two threads that guide the plot of the Odyssey (Odysseus' journey and Telemachus' search for answers) interweave and start to lead us to the main conflict of the story, Odysseus' inevitable confrontation with the suitors. We no longer have to flip from one thread of the story to another, father and son, together at last, can work to free their home from the suitor's grasp.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I enjoyed from the reading was the interaction between the disguised Odysseus and Eumaeus. Eumaeus was practically Odysseus' adopted little brother, and even he is unable to see through Odysseus' disguise, and yet he houses and feeds Odysseus and talks highly of him. I believe this interaction is helpful because it shows that not all of his people have turned against him in his absence, he still has allies in Ithaca, that the suitors haven't completely corrupted his kingdom.
I also enjoyed book 16. It is significant that Odysseus and Telemachus finally reconnect and plan an act of revenge. In addition to highlighting Odysseus' glory, it shows that Telemachus is growing up in his fathers footsteps. The fact that he survives a heroic journey with the assistance of Athena, only to outsmart the suitors, reunite with his father and hatch a revenge plan shows how him and Odysseus are very alike in their temperament, goals and attributes.
DeleteIn my opinion my opinion the best book out of books 13 to 16 was book 16 when Telemachus returns from Sparta and see's his son Odysseus for the first time in Eumaeus' hut. This is an extremely powerful scene as shown in Homer's descriptions and unique composition of the scene. This is also a nice change of pace from the violence and the war that took place in the Iliad, and it seems that Homer is now focusing more on happiness than despair.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like most of the class wrote about book 16. With that in mind, I shall write what I like about book 14, "The Loyal Swineherd". I really enjoyed how humbly Eumaeus treated Odysseus, who was disguised as an old beggar/soldier. Eumaeus, while constantly denying that Odysseus will return, laments his master's absence. When bringing the stranger, Odysseus, into his home, Eumaeus feeds him and treats him as well as he would treat anybody. I also enjoyed his rebellious attitude when, after telling the stranger about the situation with the suitors, he decides to slaughter one of the fattest pigs for he and his friends to feast on. I saw the seeds of a Marxist-styled class war when Eumaeus undermines the commands of the suitors. The problem I have with this book is that when the swineherder goes outside to sleep amongst his herd, Odysseus appreciates Eumaeus' devotion to his master's property (not out of love for his master)... After this chapter of bringing Odysseus down to the status of his swineherder, we are reminded about how the class system really works.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you appreciated the Eumaeus book as much as I do. You also see were the book's weak points are: Eumaeus is meant to be a model slave, I guess what you'd call an "Uncle Tom" character. It's interesting, of course, that his "nobility" is then explained with the fact that he's really a prince who's only fallen on hard time. The Greeks clearly didn't think that their slaves could have any ethics otherwise.
DeleteMy favorite scene in these books is in book 13 when Poseidon realizes that Odysseus has made it home to Ithaca and asks Zeus to enact revenge. Zeus grants him permission to punish the Phaeacians by filling the prophecy referenced earlier in the story. THis results in him turning their returning ship into stone. The Phaeacians can now no longer offer assistance to wayward travelers like Odysseus. I think this is a very interesting scene for a number of reasons. First, it shows that there are limits to the traditional hospitality so important to Homer and intrinsic to the narrative of his epics. It also prolongs the epic nature of Odysseus. He cannot travel with ease; it seems everywhere he sets foot drama ensues. It is unfortunate that the Phaeacian prophecy was filled because we have really come to identify with the plight of lost seamen, but the fact that they spent their very last hospitable journey on Odysseus is significant.
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing this particular scene up! This part of the story reminded me of Heinzelmännchen in German fairy tales. These are little gnomes that do the humans' work for them at night until someone either becomes so curious that he/she tries to observes them or otherwise acknowledges their presence, e.g., by making them a present to thank them. The fact that the Phaeacians, after helping Odysseus, are now blocked from helping any other sailor means, just as the Heinzelmännchen stories, that fairy tale time is no over, and humans have to do their own work viz. save themselves.
DeleteLike the majority of people have already discussed, my favorite part was in book 16 where son and father are finally reunited. Immediately, when Homer suggests Eumaeus will tell Penelope about Telemachus's return, I began hypothesizing about whether or not Odysseus was finally going to take off his disguise since this was the first time he was alone with his son. This made me extremely anxious and excited for the potential for the story to finally take a turn by focusing on family and love. Like others have mentioned, the book so far has emphasized hardship so this was definitely a refreshing part of the book that made it even more effective and pleasurable to read. Afterwards, it was enjoyable to watch son and father in action, planning out how they were going to attack the suitors. Finally, what we have been waiting for! The idea of Odysseus disguising himself as a beggar and Telemachus hiding the weapons so the suitors cannot easily reach them, effectively sets up the scenes to follow which the reader can already imagine to be eventful and thrilling.
ReplyDeleteThe episode that I found to be the best was the reunion of Odysseus and Telemachus. This is because most of the book is foreshadowing this event. I think the best part of the reunion was the way that Odysseus was disguised and he knew he had met his son before Telemachus. I just liked it because it set up a unique way for them to reunite and the reunion that much better
ReplyDeletePosted by John Mackay Mar 13, 8:47 AM
ReplyDeleteIt seems that everyone agrees that book 16 was the favorite, I'd like to add my vote to book 16 and Telemachus and Odysseus' reuniting. Though it has been implied and shown throughout the story that Telemachus is not fool and a generous young man, in this book and scene, we really get to appreciate how much like his father he is. Odysseus also shows his character well when he easily follows Athena's directions and doesn't reveal himself to his son immediately. Odysseus' dialogue, particularly with Eumaeus reminds me of the scene in Star Wars a New Hope when Obi Won scares off the sand people and Luke asks him about "Old Ben" Obi Won knows Luke refers to him but leads him on for a bit about the rumors surrounding "Old Ben." The scene is also like in episode V when Luke first meets Yoda.
Comments:
Kreed: I agree that the tone of the story changed into one of optimism and joy to some extent, but the main theme, revenge, is still very present. I think the Odyssey has not changed as much as many comments have implied and it is still not the most noble of stories
Emily: also, before Odysseus knows it is Athena on the shores, he still is on his guard even though he's just woken up and can't be sure of where he is. Athena and Odysseus have an interesting little duel of the minds, and Athena must feel similar to how Odysseus does in the presence of his son and those who mistake him.