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Gustav Klimt. Pallas Athena. 1898.
Oil on canvas. 75 x 75 cm. Historical Museum of the City of Vienna, Vienna, Austria
(click on the image for a larger view of Klimt's grey-eyed Athena)
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Tuesday, January 24, 2012
Iliad, Books 9-11
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Personally I could have done without book nine. To me it seemed a very long way to say that Achilles was still being angry over the affront to his pride. He simply refused all of Agamemnon's gifts which included the bride taken from him in the first place. It just seems to me like Achilles is a child who won't come play because you took his favorite crayon. It was a long book for Agamemnon to come to his senses, apologize to Achilles, and for Achilles to rub it in their faces that they need him. Then tell his friends that he will be deserting them tomorrow. The entire book can be cut and no real impact is made to the story.
ReplyDeleteI agree and I wrote my blog about the same thing. The book was very unnecessary and I thought could've been added into any of the other books or even eliminated. The only important thing that I got out of this book is that it shows how much the Achaens truly do need Achillies.
DeleteI agree. The list of gifts was especially unnecessary. That said, I do think its an important book in the sense that it illustrates the importance of Achilles and the desperation of Agamemnon and the other heroes.
ReplyDeleteI felt the list of gifts was especially unnecessary when the page long list was suddenly re-written word for word and I had to read it all over again, just for the exciting answer of Achilles staying as stubborn as if he hadn't just listened to a freakishly large list of things he could receive if he only joined the war.
DeleteI feel the same, I did not like how the list was shown multiple times just to have Achilles keep his answer as "no". It seemed like an unnecessary amount of times to tell about the list of gifts. It did not have an effect on Achilles so I did not see the point in including it a second time.
DeleteNestor's little digression in book 11 was very annoying. He does this periodically and honestly I really like the guy, but I really could care less about his age old accomplishments. I feel that it really takes the reader out of the current situation and ruins the mood. At this point the Trojan War has been going on for ten years. Why not have Nestor recount some heroic deed in that time frame instead of talking about people we don't even know? What even happened in those first ten years? Nestor's flashbacks could be a great way for Homer to inform us.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree, Nestor at this point is just kind of a filler character that didnt really provide anything except Patrocles' (?) motivation to do what he does.
DeleteWell if he really is written in a comic relief maybe that's why he takes you from the story. Nestor might be designed as a short break from the story as he recounts his glory days even as they are being made in front of him.
DeleteOne of the things that might have interested an ancient audience about Nestor's story is that it links him and the Trojan War to the time of Hercules/Herakles. The Epean King Augeas, who stole 4 race horses from the Pylians and from whom Nestor and his men steal 150 horses in turn, is the same king whose completely mucked-up stables Hercules had to clean as part of his 12 labors.
DeletePersonally, I was not a big fan of book number nine. I thought that it was completely unnecessary and could've been mixed with book ten or eleven. Basically it was a drawn out book to show how desperate Agamemnon was to get Achillies back fighting in his favor so the Greeks would be able to overtake the surging Trojans. Achillies refuses all of the gifts Agamemnon offers him, which could've been simplified into book ten or eleven.
ReplyDeleteOr just totally kill book ten, I mean all it was is the kings stressing and not being able to sleep and then going to look for spies? Was that necessary at all? Probably not
DeleteI have to disagree here. While book number IX is boring and has very little plot development, it does do a great deal to humanize Achilles. It is in this chapter that we learn a little about his past, and we also learn about his future. He states that he will either gain eternal fame by staying and fighting, or he will live a long and happy life by going home. So in this sense Achilles' death is foreshadowed to the reader who hasn't seen the movie Troy.
DeleteBook X was undoubtedly the most pointless book of the lot. Book IX was actually pretty important I thought contrary to popular belief, because I thought it presented Agamemnon in a whole new light. It was kind of like he finally had the realization that his army wasnt actually indestructable and that he really did need Achilles in battle for his troops morale. More just showed his moment of weakness and how the rest of the Kings convinced him that he could get through it with Achilles' help, and then goes on to offer him waaaaaay more than enough to compensate for disrespecting Achilles. Book XI is also pretty important because it shows Agamemnon on the rebound and sets up Achilles return with Nestor convincing his cousin to go to battle in Achilles armor so it can scare the Trojans and raise moral for the Greeks.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't disagree that the 9th book had some significance, but I would say that it really had too much in it. The amount of talking really took away from the story. I just could have done without it because it didn't mesh as well with the other books.
DeleteI disagree book 10 does show that now that it seems Achillies will not fight and is planing to depart, the kings look for some way to gain an advantage. They chose to use spies in an attempt to turn the tides. Even if this doesn't have much affect the next day it still shows that the Greeks, more specifically Agamemnon, have come to the realization that they are in trouble.
DeleteEven if the plot wasn't advanced in anyway during book X, the story itself was very vivid and exciting. The actions were pretty mythical (why would kings go spying?), but nonetheless bad ass.
DeleteI found that book X was the least important book of this section. This section details the heroic acts of Odysseus and Diomedes, during the night. The success of their actions, however, have no effect on the plot. We learn nothing new about any of the main characters, and the information which Odysseus and Diomedes gleaned does not changed the outcome of the battle in chapter XI. Chapter IX on the other hand, while not moving the plot forward greatly, sheds much light onto the characters of Achilles and Agamemnon. We find Achilles to be slightly more human, but find that both Agamemnon and Achilles suffer from having great pride. Chapter IX also foreshadows that Achilles will ultimately fall to his pride.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Book 10 was one of the least important books of this reading. I feel as though we just watched again as the normal armor stripping and pillaging happened. My hopes were raised when the scouts were warned by Athena that a god was angry and was going to awake the other warriors because I thought some action might actually happen. But then they just decided to go back to camp and I was bored again.
DeleteAlthough I understand where you two are coming from saying that Book 10 was the least important, I would have to disagree with a few of your points. Firstly, I don't think that it was boring. I found the late night mission exciting and it is the first you really see of Odysseus getting down to the "nitty gritty". Also, I would argue that this midnight mission did in fact help the Acheans because there was a small victory what with the 13 men killed and the team of white stallions. Before this small win, the Acheans morale was extremely low, and this gave them a boost.
DeleteI also feel that book 10 was the least important. It seemed like a battle that could have been added in between many different books, since it had no hard connection to the plot of the story. I feel as though it may have just been added in to show that the Greeks could still win a battle, and to put a break in between some of the longer dialog in the preceding and following chapters.
DeleteI thought that book X was seemingly unimportant. It did not have any major effect on the rest of the story. Odysseus and Diomedes were able to spy into the Trojan ranks, this however had no positive effect on the outcome of the battle the next day. At least book nine showed the prophecy about Achilles and showed his mindset about going into battle and his feelings towards Agamemnon. I thought that book X was almost a filler and something that could have been completely taken out or integrated in with books 9 & 10.
ReplyDeleteI agree that book ten seemed to be the most pointless from this section, as I stated in my own blog post. I like the suggestion that it could have been incorporated into one of the other books since as I state below it seems that its only purpose is to draw a comparison between the Trojans and the Greeks that is favorable to the Greeks, something that has already been done both implicitly and explicitly elsewhere.
DeleteAfter reading books 9-11, I honestly could do without book nine. It was pretty boring and was way too long. I am guessing the reason that it was so long was to stress the issue that the Greeks were in great need of Achillies returning to battle, however I feel like this could have been conveyed in a much shorter matter in a more effective way.
ReplyDeleteI would agree that's why this chapter is so long, but it was still completely unnecessary. Because at this point in the story it seems to have been established that Achilles is the greatest warrior, so there was no need for all the dialogue.
DeleteI thought it was funny that Agamemnon cries like a baby in Book 9 and is desperate to get Achilles back in action that he offers all those gifts. But I think it's even funnier that Achilles still won't budge. It's a battle of pride and the stand off is greatly effecting the outcome of the war. I agree that it was long and kind of boring, but the concept of this book was comical.
DeleteI felt that book nine was unnecessarily long. It seemed to be somewhat necessary in order to explain Achilles feelings toward the war and Agamemnon, but it definitely dragged for the most part. There seemed to be too many long monologues trying to explain the position from every person from within the story, and although there are long monologues in every book; book 9 really out did the rest in that aspect. Also not nothing really happened in this book, for as long as it was almost nothing was accomplished. At least books 10 & 11 had some
ReplyDeleteI felt the same way about each of the books. I felt that book 10 & 11 contributed more to the plot with the stress being shown by the kings and then the battle scenes taking place in book 11 that may foreshadow Achilies return, than book 9 that left me wondering why it took so long for Achillies to say no
DeleteAlthough book 9 was really long, I still think that the exchange between Agamemnon and Achilles was important in that it showed us both more to their characters, as well as it showed the importance of Achilles that the Greek army felt.
DeleteI also found that book nine was unnecessarily long for what it was explaining, but it is still important to the story and as Jorden has already mentioned, shows that Agamemnon has finally come to the realization that he has no chance without the help of Achilles. I think that Homer could have easily combined both books 9 and 10 while still conveying the same point, just with out the explaining of the offered gifts so many times.
ReplyDeleteI think that the signifigance of the gifts is different to a modern reader. In the 21st century certain elements of society disagree with materialism. Back in the Ancient Greek times, it seems to me that materialism was much more accepted. In this light, Agamemnon's gifts seem much more significant, especially considering how great they were.
DeleteI completely agree with this. I think that a lot of unnecessary detail was added into the text. I do really think that book 9 was important in that it showed the readers more about what was going on behind the scenes of the outright battle, and it was a nice reprise from all the battle scenes.
DeleteI believe that the section in book 9 where Phoenix was lecturing Achilles about his stubbornness and then Phoenix told the story of his life was unnecessary. Firstly, Phoenix doesn't seem that important to the story of the Iliad, and I really don't see why it benefits us as the readers to know about his background. However, I do think book 9 is an interesting book in that is shows us more regarding both Agamemnon's character and Achilles's in that it shows that Agamemnon, rather than apologizing, is attempting to bribe Achilles for his participation in the war; whereas Achilles refuses this bribe which shows the amount of honor and self-respect he has.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that is was as much a bride as a exuberant apology. Achilles is a king and one of the greatest heroes of the Greek people. Agamemnon couldn't really just send word he was sorry, a payment would have to be made. Achilles outright refusal just seemed sort of selfish to me.
DeleteI agree with this, I had actually thought about writing about this episode in my own post. The exchange between Phoenix and Achilles was again, unchanging to the plot so it seemed unnecessary to tell the whole life story of Phoenix to Achilles who had no intentions of going back to the fight. But I also agree that book 9 had significance to the story and was not just extra dialog.
DeleteAn episode that I could do without occurs in Book 9 as the captains and heroes, that Agamemnon sent to Achilles, are begging Achilles to come to their aid. Phoenix goes on ranting about a story involving his youth, his escape from his father's home, how he raised Achilles, and then an acount of an "ancient exploit" of the Curetes battling the Aetolians. The first bit was tolerable. The second bit, however, I found to be tedious and almost entirely irrelevant. His rant story is only three pages but it seems to drag on and on. The rest of the meeting with Achilles I thought was enjoyable because of how passionate the dialogue was. Achilles' hatred of Agamemnon was palpable.
ReplyDeleteI agree that this narrative seemed unnecessary. The only purpose it seemed to serve was to inspire Achilles to rejoin the Greeks. If he had done so after this episode then I might be inclined to think it less pointless but as it is I don't see the purpose of such a long story when Achilles promptly dismisses it as an incentive to forgive Agamemnon.
DeleteThis is the part of book nine that I like the least as well. I feel same way about how Phoenix's story kept dragging on and on and I felt like this part was definitely not necessary or at least could have been shorter.
DeleteI felt the most unnecessary part of this section was book ten. I can see that a lot of people have felt similarly as not only does the chapter extend for a pointlessly long time, but the episode in an of itself feels unnecessary. We have seen in other places how Odysseus and Diomedes are great warriors so that can't be given as the reason for the book. The only thing which it seems to accomplish is to draw a stark comparison between the Trojans and the Greeks, showing the Greeks as being clearly superior. This again seems odd since in the very next chapter we see how successful the Trojans are at beating back the Greeks once again.
ReplyDeleteI agree, book 10 was the most unnecessary. As you noted, there didn't seem to be any real purpose of the book, since we already know the strength of Diomedes and Odysseus. The only reason I can think that it was inserted in between book 9 and 11 is that it does show a Greek victory, in between many large Trojan victories (although many were influenced by the gods). Nothing in this book seems to affect any other book, and it feels like it was just added in to separate the greek losses in book 9 and 11.
DeleteIt seems to me that book 10 served to give us a reason for why the Greeks were able to beat back the Trojans for a time (in losing some allies) and, therefore, allowing the Greeks and Trojans to once again meet in the field where Greek heroes/captains will be wounded. From this point the story can move in a direction that leads towards Achilles' involvement in the war.
DeleteOut of all the books, I felt like book nine could really have been done away with. All it really was was a list of items the more important characters were willing to give to Achilles and them claiming they didn't sleep with his female companion previously stolen away to punish Achilles. I really felt like the repetition of the entire list was really unnecessary unless the goal of the author was to make me let out a long sigh of defeat and boredom upon reading it a second time.
ReplyDeleteI feel the same way, book nine was way too long and seemed pointless. I feel like it was to get the reader to really understand how much the Greeks were in desperate need of Achilles, however this could have been done just as effectively if it was shorter and without boring the reader.
DeleteI agree that much of book nine was a bit unnecessary, but there was some rich dialogue in a few places. As Phoenix is imploring Achilles to join with them in battle, he begs Achilles to think of his fellow Greeks being slaughtered in the field. Also, Achilles' response is stirring. His anger towards Agamemnon, while slightly misguided perhaps, is very strong.
DeleteHonestly, I feel like there wasn't much in any of these books that was super important. And the things that were important were embellished with long unnecessary monologues and random stories and repetition and repetition and repetition. And again, to be honest, I think the main reason I don't like these books is because the Trojans are winning. This would also explain why I liked book ten, because the Trojans got ran up on and killed in the middle of the night. Hector is a cool guy and all, but I really wish Achilles would just kill him already.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to see which books have been chosen as completely unimportant so far. I asked the question because scholars actually think that one of these books is a later addition, i.e., not part of Homer's original plan.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, book 10 was the least important.
ReplyDeleteBooks 9 and 11 help to show how desperately the Achaeans need Achilles join the fight, without whom they are likely to lose the war. This foreshadows Achilles' eventual calling to arms, and death.
However, thrown right in the middle of these two chapters is a seemingly disconnected tale of Diomedes and Odysseus' stealth mission to the Trojan camp. I feel this may have been added in between the two chapters to show that while the Greeks were being pushed back closer and closer to their ships, they still had some fight left in them. Also, to a Greek audience, it may have been very disconcerting to see the Trojans winning battle after battle in many consecutive books, so this book may have been inserted between book 9 and 11 the Greek audience's interest.
I should also note, since this book was so disconnected from the book 9 and 11, it feels like it was written after the fact, and just inserted in to put a break in between books 9 and 11.
DeleteLauren Jones on Mon Jan 30, 2012, 11:44 PM:
ReplyDelete"At first I wasn't sure what the question meant by the term episodes. If episodes means which chapter I could have done without, then I would have said Chapter 9. If episodes means sections, which I had initially thought until I had read other posts, I was going to respond by saying that I actually enjoyed all three chapters but would have done without a few things in chapter 9. Yes it was relatively long for the subject matter but one key part that stood out to me as being completely pointless was towards the end of Chapter 9 on page 269 to 271 where Phoenix decides to add on to his long sentimental anecdote, the "old tale". Here, after hearing Phoenix go on and on about how he taught Achilles as his own son (which was relatively interesting), Phoenix then continues to recite an old tale with completely new characters and an entirely new plot line. This seemed a little excessive. I'm not sure what Homer's intent was when adding this into the Iliad because it honestly just caused me to lose interest in the original story. There were quite a few new names that were dropped, which caused more confusion. Once the story was over, I was so relieved to have him return to Phoenix talking directly to Achilles. What I really liked about Chapter 9 was how Achilles never succumbed to Agamemnon. Even after Agamemnon decides to shower Achilles with numerous gifts, Achilles is too stubborn to accept them and tells his messengers to return to Agamemnon with the upsetting news. Achilles calls Agamemnon out for his inability to fight his own battles, implying how he is a coward, which is beautifully highlighted in chapter 11 when Agamemnon fights and is wounded."
John on Tues., Jan 31, 2012, at 9:14 AM:
ReplyDeleteI thought each book was very significant to the plot, but as Book IX didn't change anything other than Achilles threatening to leave which could have been accomplished much more quickly, it would have to be the one I could most do without. Book X was engaging as is most espionage, it was concise, and it was easy to see how Odysseus and Diomedes helped to turn the tide of the war by killing that contingent of warriors. In Book XI we see Agamemnon's Day of Glory, which though not extremely necessary in the progression of the plot, each hero needs to be given his due. Book IX reinforced how prideful Achilles is, and though it reminded the reader of his quarrel with Agamemnon, no new information was presented, and so Book IX must be the least significant. As others have stated, the section with Phoenix lecturing Achilles was exceptionally tedious.
Response 1 to cwinnie: I agree that Book IX was the most unnecessary and I wrote on the same thing but since you reminded me of the idea that Achilles would desert the war I'd have to say the book remains significant to the plot. Anyone who is familiar with the Iliad knows Achilles won't be leaving, and instead dying with an arrow through his heel, but the threat to the Greeks of really losing Achilles is huge.
Response 2 to JD Murray: I totally agree that Nestor could be more effectively implemented in the story and it's a really good idea for him to give us background of the war. I cheated and glanced ahead in the book, Book XVI is called "Patroclus Fights and Dies" so Hector's death must be next. This is one of if not the climax of the story, and we still haven't been presented with any background information. Nestor does seem like the perfect way to do this if Homer is so bent on not having a flashback. Though we can infer why the Greeks are there and what happened before, I feel if this was the first version of the story I'd be significantly confused about the backstory.
Laurel on Jan 31, 2012, at 9:26 AM:
ReplyDeleteThe one episode I could have done without is definitely Phoenix’s plea to Achilles in Book 9. His speech is moving in that it takes us back to Achilles’ childhood. He expresses a lot of love for the great fighter, but that is what is so bothersome. He is reminiscing about Achilles as a boy while begging him to stay. This is problematic because he is fully aware of the fact that if Achilles stays and fights he will also die. If Phoenix really cares about Achilles as much as he says he does, it seems like he would support his “son’s” decision to go home and live. His plea seems purely selfish in this context and I am unmoved by his rhetoric. My respect for Phoenix as a character definitely diminished with this episode.
I'd like to summarize today's discussion in class and to add a few remarks:
ReplyDeleteBook 9 begins with the Greeks experiencing their greatest crisis ever: For the first time in ten years, they are besieged by the Trojan, not the other way around, and the only thing that still keeps the Trojans from killing them all and burning down their ships is the new rampart the Greeks have just built. This Greek crisis is all due to Achilles' refusal to fight.
In book 9, we see the Greeks attempting to resolve the crisis by persuading Achilles to return to the fight. Book 9 shows, however, that Agamemnon is still not really ready to apologize. He sends others to apologize for him, and he insists that Achilles needs to submit to him. Thus even Odysseus as the most eloquent and thus first speaker, Phoenix as Achilles' Ersatz-father (didn't you enjoy the image of Achilles as a baby spitting up on Phoenix' dress?), and Ajax as the laconic, fellow soldier can't persuade Achilles to give in. Moreover, book 9 reminds the audience of Achilles' truly tragic situation: if he agrees to fight again, he is destined to die an early, albeit glorious death, and he doesn't see why he should do that for a bastard like Agamemnon.
Book 10, the Doloneia (story of the Trojan spy Dolon) is generally regarded by Homer scholars as a later addition. Strangely enough, though, it does contain an echo of truly ancient lore, as Odysseus is described as wearing the kind of Mycenaean boar's teeth helmet that had been out of vogue for hundreds of years by Homer's time. The book also offers vivid, action-packed narrative, and Diomedes' and Odysseus' success is apt to boost the spirits of the depressed Greeks, enough to enable the renewed attack in book 11. A later myth also tells of an oracle that the Greeks would only win the war if they were able to steal King Rhesus' horses.
Finally, book 11 shows that Agamemnon is not the coward Achilles claims he is. Agamemnon leads the attack and fights valiantly during his own aristeia (best day) until he is wounded.
Even more importantly, though, book 11 heightens the sense of crisis and impending doom for the Greeks (and thus the need for Achilles' return). Several of the most important Greek heroes (Agamemnon, Diomedes, Odysseus) have their aristeia, but one after the other each is wounded and forced to retreat. Even the giant Ajax cannot withstand the onslaught of the Trojan masses. All this lends persuasive force to Nestor's pleas to Patroclus to talk to his friend Achilles and allow at least that his Myrmidons, led by Patroclus in Achilles' armor, may rejoin the fray. After book 11, Patroclus' intervention offers the only hope left to the Greeks.
The story of Nestor's own first battle experiences not only serves to illustrate the glory Patroclus could potentially earn were he to fight himself, it also represents another aristeia, this time old Nestor's. Typically, this aristeia is set in the past because Nestor's days of glory as a fighter are long past. Yet when he was young, Nestor must have been a much better fighter than the younger heroes before Troy: where they kill maybe a dozen men during an aristeia, Nestor claims to have killed more than 102 fighters during his very first big battle.