A blog for Willamette University's class CLAS 171 "Love and War, Gods and Heroes: Greek and Roman Epic Poetry." Used for discussions of the epics of Homer, Hesiod, Vergil, and Lucan.
Tuesday, January 31, 2012
Iliad, Books 15-17
What is your favorite episode in books 15-17 of the Iliad, and why?
(response and 2 comments on classmates' posts due on Tues., Feb. 7, 2012, before class)
My favorite part of this section was the death of Patroclus. This wasn't necessarily because I found his death particularly interesting, but rather because it's a turning point in the story. Although there has been lots of reading up until now it seems like for the most part little has been happening besides the fighting in general. I'm eager to see Achilles play a larger role since we've only heard his reputation up until now, never seeing him actually fighting. Zeus makes it clear that once Patroclus dies Achilles will be spurred to action so it was for that reason that I felt his death to be my favorite part.
I agree. I feel that the story up until this point did not necessarily have that much taking place. It just seemed this repetitive back and forth cycle between the Trojans and the Greeks. I like how the death of Patroclus means that the plot is progressing and we will soon get to read about Achilles in battle.
I am very excited to see Achilles finally take on a major role in the book. Having only watched Troy before this class, I was thoroughly confused when beginning the book that I had read only a dozen or so lines about the great Achilles. The Iliad has been good so far, but I expect my interest in it to increase quite substantially when the bad-assery of Achilles starts being shown consistently in the upcoming reads we will have to do.
I agree with this post because I am also very anxious to see what makes Achilles the legend that he is. I know that the death of Patroclus is the final thing that makes Achilles go into battle and if he is as amazing as everyone is saying that he is I think that the future books will be very entertaining.
I agree with this post. I really enjoyed seeing how Patroclus' death was originally portrayed in the Iliad after having seen Troy. I also thought it was really interesting how for the first time in the Iliad it didn't really portray Hector as honorable as he normally is portrayed.
Of Books 15-17, I particularly liked the battle near the beginning of Book 16. At the end of Book 15 we see the Achaeans with their morale broken, backs to the sea, and ships aflame. Homer likens them to "some antlered stag or skittish mountain goat" who is being hunted down by dogs and huntsmen (pg.396). I would argue that of all the low points of the Achaeans that we have seen, this is the lowest by far. Next, we see Patroclus weeping and running towards Achilles "like a girl, a baby running after her mother..." (pg.412). As I read this, I was thinking, "How is this guy supposed to turn the tides of battle if he is weeping like a child?" However, this incredibly gruesome and gory battle scene unfolds with the Achaeans tearing through the Trojan lines. I found the visceral cruelty with which the Achaeans, lead by Patroclus, to be astonishing. I really liked seeing the Achaeans driving back the Trojans from the desperate position that they had previously been in.
I thought the same thing when Patroclus came back to Achilles. It seems completely at odds to his attack on the Trojans. Though maybe it was an attempt to humanize him before he takes on his pseudo-godhood and saves the Achaeans.
I know I said it in class last week, but it seems like Achilles wouldnt/shouldnt be so casual about the situation. Is he just so confident in his ability or is it just me.
I believe my favorite section of this reading was chapter 15. It is here that I began to appreciate the big Ajax in a different light. Hector has the might of the gods behind him and only barely manages to push the Trojan line forward. Ajax, on the other hand, has no divine inspiration, and still manages to hold the Achean line. His strength is such that he is almost able to defeat Hector, despite Hector's divine blessing. It is only the direct internvention of the gods that stop Ajax from killing Hector. It seems here that Ajax is the greatest mortal man. The other heroes only seem great because the gods wish them to be.
This is an interesting comment about Ajax, especially in the light of the fact that we've seen the two of them fight a duel before which Hector only survived because Zeus made night fall, and another time, Hector had to be carried to safety by his comrades when Ajax hit him with a huge rock. In a way, all these duels between Ajax and Hector are deputy fights that prepare us for the final showdown between Hector and Achilles. The fact that Hector is never truly a match for Ajax foreshadows that he will have no chance at all against Achilles, the even greater Greek fighter.
Another thing I realized as I read your comment is that Teucer, Ajax' half-brother, also almost kills Hector with his arrows, except that Zeus makes his bow cord snap at the last moment. In a way, I guess, we could say that Teucer serves as an extension of his bigger brother.
I agree. Hector, Paris, Achilles and the rest all have the gods looking out for them, saving them from death on the battlefield. It seems almost cheating to call any of those with divine aid the "greatest heroes". They would be nothing but cold and dead if not for their guardian angels. This scene with Ajax made me appreciate the common, divine aid-less, participants in this war.
I completely agree. I too found a new appreciation for Ajax and his strength. The way Homer highlights his natural power by contrasting it with Hector who is visibly being helped by the gods, allows the reader to truly understand his unbelievable strength in relation to other characters.
You just have to love Ajax. I also like how he gives the tale an epic element (being a monster and all) without the favor or help of the gods. Why is it that none of the gods really pamper him? I could see Ares as his patron deity.
Three comments so far, and all with very different and interesting takes on the three books. I have to refrain myself from commenting on all of them, but I am looking forward to picking up several of your ideas on Tuesday.
I think that my favorite part of the three books was in book 15 how after Zeus realizes that Hera enchanted him to sleep so that she and Poseidon could aid the greeks, he reassured Hera that he had no favorites in the war between the greeks and trojans, and how even though he would help the trojans out, they were destined to lose. For me, it was entertaining to see how the Zeus knew the outcome, but continued to use the men as games pieces. It was as if the war was only going on for the gods amusement and men really had no say in their own fate.
I thought it was funny to see Zeus brag again about how much stronger he was than all the other gods. This time threatening Hera with chaining her to the sky.
These scenes oft depict Zues' bragging, but we never see if he can back up his actions with words. I wonder whether or not Zues truly is the strongest of the gods, seeing as him, Hades, and Poseidon are supposed to be equal. I am curious if there are other stories in myth where Zues shows his dominance over the other gods
I thought Zeus might have been overstating a bit when he said that he had no favorites. He seems to have been choosing sides for the entire war. And I agree, Zeus looks like a massive braggart. It's not very becoming of the king of gods.
I agree, I thought this part was hilarious. I also thought it was hilarious how Poseidon never admitted that Zeus could beat him in a fight, but he still backed off anyway.
I think that there should be a gods show down where the other sons of Cronus go head to head to head in a tournament to prove their strengths. Zeus is cool and all but like Jeremy stated, we never see him do that much, at least in the Iliad. But I am sure there has got to be other stories that show Zeus's superiority. We learn of some from the other gods in the book, but only mere references. They wouldn't be so scared of him for nothing,right?
My favorite of the three was book 16. I liked Patroclus taking on Achilles armor and then routing the Trojans. The way it is written it seems like it was him alone who pushed the entire Trojan line back to Troy. To me this was one of the most "epic" parts of this epic. However, I also found the gods to be very interesting in this book as well. Their constant meddling always has drastic consequences and they don't really care. Except for when on of their sons dies. In book 15 Ares is in a rage for his son and in 16 Zeus weeps tears of blood after allowing Patroclus to kill his son. To me karma for their arrogance gets taken out on their heroic children.
I would agree with this post. As a stated in my post it seems to be Achilles first entry into the war which is clearly an important part of the story, especially with all the signs coming from zeus.
When I was reading this section, I also was eager to see Patroclus fight. When he puts on Achilles armor, I was like a little kid who was hearing a bedtime story who wanted the plot to quicken. I also was surprised that Homer found another way to keep me intrigued through the fighting scenes, because initially going into the reading, I thought I was burnt out on all the war dialogue, but shockingly no. It was nice to finally see Patroclus play a large role in the battle. He successfully acted as a new tool to keep me reading for more.
I also think this is the most important part of these books because it allows for an amazing rampage/return of Achilles. It also shows how much achilles is feared by the trojans.
I really liked book 16 because of how slightly dark and twisted it was. The whole time you know that Patroclus is going to die (due to common knowledge and the books title "Patroclus Fights and Dies") and there is an underlying sense of dread, like you are watching a car crash happen in slow motion from beginning to end and you cannot do anything to stop it. The description of his death was much more detailed than all the other deaths that had happened so far, and so it was much easier to envision the first blow he takes, and then the final, killing blow of Hector. Then, as a cherry on top of the dark sundae, Homer decided to add a prophesy of doom for Hector, spoken as the very last and dying words of Patroclus. How deliciously dreadful!
I definitely agree with this post. I enjoyed the foretelling component of the story, even though, as you say, it is "dark and twisted". Homer does a good job of fully developing characters like Patroclus even though we know he will die. Patroclus' death is an obvious turning point in the story and though we are saddened to loose a character the audience has grown attached to, it is the fulfilling of a foretelling and farther proof of the Gods' power. It is interesting that even though he dies, it takes three people to kill him. He is one of the only soldiers to die by the combined effort of three others.
I particularly enjoyed Patroclus's death in this section of The Iliad. It was painful to hear Hector taunt the dying Patroclus; the irony of the situation was almost palpable and you could almost see Hector's doom coming down upon him with Patroclus's dying breath. Also remarkable about this scene, and really books 15 and 16, is the new light that Homer displays Hector in. Hector doesn't appear to be the hero he was in the earlier books- he runs away from battle twice, he makes empty boasts about defeating Achilles and taunts a dying man. It really feels like Homer is setting up Hector, and therefore the Trojans, for their last big fall.
I agree with this idea that Hector has been put into a new, more sinister, light. Beforehand, Hector was viewed as a family man, and a more compassionate and heart-warming hero than the other more brutal and heartless of the bunch. Book 16 really seemed to spin Hector around 180 degrees and make us view his as a more evil and dark character. I believe that Homer did this as a kindness for the reader, making it easy to accept and let go after his impending death.
I agree with this. In previous books as well as the movie, Hector is seen as having good characteristics and with us knowing he is destined to be killed by Achilles, almost makes him a victim. But having him taunt Patroclus, and do other non heroic things like run from battle, Hector is a becoming more of a villain than a heroic victim
I really agree with this. Hector is seen in so many different lights throughout books 15-17, and his taunting really makes you feel sympathy for the Greeks. Here was a man so scared of Achilles that he turn and ran and now he is taunting over his dead body. It makes the side your routing for much easier.
I thought this series of the books kind of took Hector down a notch now that he hasnt beat Ajax in battle without divine intervention, and seeing how he is the finest Trojan fighter, it shows that the Trojans are actually only winning via the gods
I know there are a bunch of replies on this comment, but I just had to throw in that I totally agree with all of you. Definitely agree that the Trojans were only winning because of the gods, and that Hector is becoming more a villain. Homer has to do this though because you know that Achilles eventually kills Hector, but up til now Homer has been building Hector up as this awesome savage (whether it was because of the gods or not.) Esp the scene with his wife and son, you start to sway to sympathize with Hector. But the audience doesn't want to feel sorry for Hector when he dies, so Homer had to bring him down from a "god-like" hero
I also thought the taunting and fighting over the bodies during the fighting was painful to read. Not only do these soldiers give their lives in these fights, but they are taunted and fought over after their death, rather than being left to die with honor.
The episode that I found most interesting was Patroclus's death. This intrigued me only because it allows for the story to be advanced and signals the begging of Achilles's rampage and ultimately the fall of Troy. I like that Homer is in a way forcing the battle of Achilles and and Hector with the way this scene plays out. Foreshadowing that for which we all are waiting for.
I also chose this as my favorite part. I think it's particularly interesting how the gods play such a central role in this way, forwarding the plot to its preordained finish as established way back when Thetis asks Zeus to make Achilles great. It's a distinctly non-modern way of telling the story by revealing its end so far in advance, something that I find uniquely interesting.
My favorite scene during Books 15-17 is actually at the beginning of Book 15. It is when Zeus wakes up and realizes that he has been tricked by Hera and Poseidon and is infuriated. I think it is really interesting to see the relationships between all the gods. They are just like us, completely manipulating, but also hilarious. I think it was hilarious that Zeus, rather than tell Poseidon himself to back off of the Trojan war, sends Iris to tell him. I also really liked this part because it shows for the first time in the Iliad the relationship between two of the three all-powerful gods (Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades). It was funny that Poseidon, in all his pride, didn't actually say Zeus could beat him, but rather left with the excuse that he simply didn't want to deal with the drama. I also thought it was interesting how on page 407 in Book 15, that Hector's death by Achilles predicted, or basically told to us.
I also really liked the scene of Zeus waking up and realizing he has been tricked. This is one of the first times we have seen Zeus portrayed as a character not in complete and total control of his environment. He is the most powerful god and is referred to as Father by many mortals. Most of the gods and goddesses express freight towards Zeus and seem to tip-toe around him. It is interesting that Hera and Poseidon care enough about the mortal fight to actually trick him.
The books that feature the gods interacting among themselves are some of my favorites. I too enjoyed the fighting between Zeus and Poseidon. I really wish it had come to blows. Personally, I look forward to more mythological encounters. Men fighting men is interesting, but I long to see Minotaurs, Chimeras, and Cyclopes.
My favorite episode from these three books would have to be the death of Patroclus. His death seemed to be to play an important initial role and an important role for the future as well. His involvement and deaths seemed to spark the greeks for the remainder of this book, and even the mighty Hector was running scared at the sight of him in Achilles armor. Also this is important because its really the first time we've seen Achilles somewhat take part in the war, it may show his slight shift in feelings and possibly lead to Achilles entry into the war.
Kinda cliched, but I kinda didnt want to stop reading. I was pretty jacked to see Achilles start finally do some battle. I also felt that book 15 was a good example of how scared the rest of the gods really are of Zeus.
I agree. Having us end where we did was tantalizing as we are finally just about to see Achilles enter the action, which was the reason I chose the death of Patroclus as my favorite part. When I reached the end of this section after all the build up to Achilles entering the action and he still had not I felt deeply inclined to read ahead.
I too found the death of Patroclus to be extremely captivating, but seeing as how many people wrote about this example, I'm going to write about the last part of Chapter 15 because I thoroughly enjoyed Homer's portrayal of Ajax and Hector and how the plot was told. Specifically, how Homer repeats certain phrases after allowing each man the ability to rally his fighters. On page 403, after Hector persuades his men to follow him and fight, Homer writes, "That was his cry, as Hector put fresh fighting spirit in each man." Then Homer continues with Ajax preaching to his troops, again ending with "And that was Ajax' cry, as the giant put fresh fighting spirit in each men." I thought this was a perfect example of "epic" poetry because it felt like Homer was creating a puzzle with two men reciting their "build-up speeches", back to back, both ending in simple statements that were heavy with meaning. Another interesting element was the continual references to lions, or large cats, as if to help the reader visualize these men as large beasts with massive amounts of energy who were ready for battle. Homer writes, "now like a pride of man-eating lions the Trojan forces stormed the fleet," (406) again later using the same simile, "and Hector lunged again like a murderous lion mad for kills" (408) and lastly, "leaving the center free for the big cat's pounce." For some reason the repetition throughout this battle scene was extremely intriguing and further heightened my appreciation for Homer's beautiful writing techniques.
I also really liked Homers use of repeated lines at the end of Book 15. I may be incorrect, but I think this is an example of formulaic speech. It seems funny that this would rouse the troops. I'd think that if one side heard their leader repeat the same words of encouragement that their enemies' leader had said, they wouldn't be very inspired.
Along with many other posts, I found Patroclus' death to be an interesting and captivating experience, and one that definitely seemed to turn the tide on the war. With Hector surging with power and the gods spurring him on and fighting at his back, it seemed as if the Trojans were going to break the Achaens lines and make a fight towards the ships. Patroclus then begs Achilles for his armor, and goes on a rout slaughtering countless Trojans. Now here is where I find it to be interesting: Zeus ultimately decides the fate of Patroclus, which shows how much of an impact the gods truly have on the war. After Hector slays Patroclus it strikes a fire within Achilles, making him want vengeance for his fallen friend. This part in the book seems to mark the end of the domination of the Trojans, as Achilles prepares to fight.
My favorite scene in Chapters 15-17 is in the beginning of book 15 when Zeus gives his lengthy speech. I particularly enjoyed this part because of the foretelling he does in regards to the victor of the 10-year battle, as well as the future of the Achaeans and Trojans. This section again attests to Zeus' superiority over mortals and immortals alike. He makes it clear how predestination is a binding concept and that the fates of these armies are sealed. This is an interesting and unusual literary technique, but it works. I find myself continuing to stay at rapt attention despite the fact that I know how the story is going to end.
So although these books were jam packed with some great scenes, most that were already mentioned, I found myself laughing hysterically at the very start of Book 16. We talked some in class about the supposed relationship between Patroclus and Achilles, and I felt like the dialogue at the beginning of this book gives some insight on the dynamics of their relationship. Achilles brutally insults Patroclus as he compares him to a baby girl, crying, running to her mother, and it is a pretty lengthy metaphor at that. And even though I get that it is a high strung time in battle, Patroclus barely acknowledges and basically ignores it and gets to business. And then Achilles hears him out and takes his advice. I really appreciate all the comic relief. Thanks Homer!
I found these three books to be rather dull and repetitive. The incessant back and forth nature of the fighting became monotonous. Compared to chapter 14 none of these books were all that great. I'm excited to see Achilles enter the battle and more than anything I hope he changes the nature of the battles. I feel as though much of the fighting consists of great Greek or Trojan heroes killing lesser men. On the other hand, I was happy to see both Patroclus and Sarpedon go down (contradicting myself here?). My favorite portions of ch 15-17 occur when great warriors battles great warriors.
I respectfully disagree. I think the situation that the Achaeans are left in at the end of Book 15 coupled with the extremely brutal battle of Book 16 makes for a pretty exciting read. Plus, we get to see Zeus almost face off with his younger brother Poseidon. I thought it was all pretty interesting. Also, as far as great warriors go, we've already seen Hector battle the big Ajax and the somewhat pitiful battle between Menelaus and Paris, which were all pretty sweet.
My favorite episode was in book 16, specifically Patroclus' death. In this book we finally see the rise and fall of Patroclus, which we have known for a while was coming and will lead to the involvement of Achilles in the fighting. However, Patroclus' didn't go down without a fight. With the aid of Achilles' armor, he drove the Trojans from within arms reach of the ships all the way back to the walls of troy. Even according to Homer: "And then and there the Acheans might have taken Troy, her towering gates toppling under Patroclus' power...", if not for Apollo's intervention in driving back Patroclus. With Patroclus dead, we now know that Achilles will finally return to the fight.
I really liked book 16 due to its excellent sense of forboding and just how fated Patroclus seems to be. It was very interesting to me that Patroclus did not need any godly intervention to get Achilles to give him his armor. One would assume that even in his rage Achilles would have shown more care for his friend. I also found the scene where Achilles asks Zeus to spare his friend, even while the audience knows Zeus already promised to kill him, really interesting.
My favorite part of this section was the death of Patroclus. This wasn't necessarily because I found his death particularly interesting, but rather because it's a turning point in the story. Although there has been lots of reading up until now it seems like for the most part little has been happening besides the fighting in general. I'm eager to see Achilles play a larger role since we've only heard his reputation up until now, never seeing him actually fighting. Zeus makes it clear that once Patroclus dies Achilles will be spurred to action so it was for that reason that I felt his death to be my favorite part.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I feel that the story up until this point did not necessarily have that much taking place. It just seemed this repetitive back and forth cycle between the Trojans and the Greeks. I like how the death of Patroclus means that the plot is progressing and we will soon get to read about Achilles in battle.
DeleteI am very excited to see Achilles finally take on a major role in the book. Having only watched Troy before this class, I was thoroughly confused when beginning the book that I had read only a dozen or so lines about the great Achilles. The Iliad has been good so far, but I expect my interest in it to increase quite substantially when the bad-assery of Achilles starts being shown consistently in the upcoming reads we will have to do.
DeleteI agree with this post because I am also very anxious to see what makes Achilles the legend that he is. I know that the death of Patroclus is the final thing that makes Achilles go into battle and if he is as amazing as everyone is saying that he is I think that the future books will be very entertaining.
DeleteI agree with this post. I really enjoyed seeing how Patroclus' death was originally portrayed in the Iliad after having seen Troy. I also thought it was really interesting how for the first time in the Iliad it didn't really portray Hector as honorable as he normally is portrayed.
DeleteOf Books 15-17, I particularly liked the battle near the beginning of Book 16. At the end of Book 15 we see the Achaeans with their morale broken, backs to the sea, and ships aflame. Homer likens them to "some antlered stag or skittish mountain goat" who is being hunted down by dogs and huntsmen (pg.396). I would argue that of all the low points of the Achaeans that we have seen, this is the lowest by far. Next, we see Patroclus weeping and running towards Achilles "like a girl, a baby running after her mother..." (pg.412). As I read this, I was thinking, "How is this guy supposed to turn the tides of battle if he is weeping like a child?" However, this incredibly gruesome and gory battle scene unfolds with the Achaeans tearing through the Trojan lines. I found the visceral cruelty with which the Achaeans, lead by Patroclus, to be astonishing. I really liked seeing the Achaeans driving back the Trojans from the desperate position that they had previously been in.
ReplyDeleteI thought the same thing when Patroclus came back to Achilles. It seems completely at odds to his attack on the Trojans. Though maybe it was an attempt to humanize him before he takes on his pseudo-godhood and saves the Achaeans.
DeleteI know I said it in class last week, but it seems like Achilles wouldnt/shouldnt be so casual about the situation. Is he just so confident in his ability or is it just me.
DeleteI believe my favorite section of this reading was chapter 15. It is here that I began to appreciate the big Ajax in a different light. Hector has the might of the gods behind him and only barely manages to push the Trojan line forward. Ajax, on the other hand, has no divine inspiration, and still manages to hold the Achean line. His strength is such that he is almost able to defeat Hector, despite Hector's divine blessing. It is only the direct internvention of the gods that stop Ajax from killing Hector. It seems here that Ajax is the greatest mortal man. The other heroes only seem great because the gods wish them to be.
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting comment about Ajax, especially in the light of the fact that we've seen the two of them fight a duel before which Hector only survived because Zeus made night fall, and another time, Hector had to be carried to safety by his comrades when Ajax hit him with a huge rock. In a way, all these duels between Ajax and Hector are deputy fights that prepare us for the final showdown between Hector and Achilles. The fact that Hector is never truly a match for Ajax foreshadows that he will have no chance at all against Achilles, the even greater Greek fighter.
DeleteAnother thing I realized as I read your comment is that Teucer, Ajax' half-brother, also almost kills Hector with his arrows, except that Zeus makes his bow cord snap at the last moment. In a way, I guess, we could say that Teucer serves as an extension of his bigger brother.
I agree. Hector, Paris, Achilles and the rest all have the gods looking out for them, saving them from death on the battlefield. It seems almost cheating to call any of those with divine aid the "greatest heroes". They would be nothing but cold and dead if not for their guardian angels. This scene with Ajax made me appreciate the common, divine aid-less, participants in this war.
DeleteI completely agree. I too found a new appreciation for Ajax and his strength. The way Homer highlights his natural power by contrasting it with Hector who is visibly being helped by the gods, allows the reader to truly understand his unbelievable strength in relation to other characters.
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DeleteYou just have to love Ajax. I also like how he gives the tale an epic element (being a monster and all) without the favor or help of the gods. Why is it that none of the gods really pamper him? I could see Ares as his patron deity.
DeleteThree comments so far, and all with very different and interesting takes on the three books. I have to refrain myself from commenting on all of them, but I am looking forward to picking up several of your ideas on Tuesday.
ReplyDeleteI think that my favorite part of the three books was in book 15 how after Zeus realizes that Hera enchanted him to sleep so that she and Poseidon could aid the greeks, he reassured Hera that he had no favorites in the war between the greeks and trojans, and how even though he would help the trojans out, they were destined to lose. For me, it was entertaining to see how the Zeus knew the outcome, but continued to use the men as games pieces. It was as if the war was only going on for the gods amusement and men really had no say in their own fate.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was funny to see Zeus brag again about how much stronger he was than all the other gods. This time threatening Hera with chaining her to the sky.
DeleteThese scenes oft depict Zues' bragging, but we never see if he can back up his actions with words. I wonder whether or not Zues truly is the strongest of the gods, seeing as him, Hades, and Poseidon are supposed to be equal. I am curious if there are other stories in myth where Zues shows his dominance over the other gods
DeleteI thought Zeus might have been overstating a bit when he said that he had no favorites. He seems to have been choosing sides for the entire war. And I agree, Zeus looks like a massive braggart. It's not very becoming of the king of gods.
DeleteI agree, I thought this part was hilarious. I also thought it was hilarious how Poseidon never admitted that Zeus could beat him in a fight, but he still backed off anyway.
DeleteI think that there should be a gods show down where the other sons of Cronus go head to head to head in a tournament to prove their strengths. Zeus is cool and all but like Jeremy stated, we never see him do that much, at least in the Iliad. But I am sure there has got to be other stories that show Zeus's superiority. We learn of some from the other gods in the book, but only mere references. They wouldn't be so scared of him for nothing,right?
DeleteI agree that this shows how the Gods use the mortal people as game pieces. It seems as if this war is just a Sunday game of Monopoly for them.
DeleteMy favorite of the three was book 16. I liked Patroclus taking on Achilles armor and then routing the Trojans. The way it is written it seems like it was him alone who pushed the entire Trojan line back to Troy. To me this was one of the most "epic" parts of this epic. However, I also found the gods to be very interesting in this book as well. Their constant meddling always has drastic consequences and they don't really care. Except for when on of their sons dies. In book 15 Ares is in a rage for his son and in 16 Zeus weeps tears of blood after allowing Patroclus to kill his son. To me karma for their arrogance gets taken out on their heroic children.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with this post. As a stated in my post it seems to be Achilles first entry into the war which is clearly an important part of the story, especially with all the signs coming from zeus.
DeleteWhen I was reading this section, I also was eager to see Patroclus fight. When he puts on Achilles armor, I was like a little kid who was hearing a bedtime story who wanted the plot to quicken. I also was surprised that Homer found another way to keep me intrigued through the fighting scenes, because initially going into the reading, I thought I was burnt out on all the war dialogue, but shockingly no. It was nice to finally see Patroclus play a large role in the battle. He successfully acted as a new tool to keep me reading for more.
DeleteI also think this is the most important part of these books because it allows for an amazing rampage/return of Achilles. It also shows how much achilles is feared by the trojans.
DeleteI really liked book 16 because of how slightly dark and twisted it was. The whole time you know that Patroclus is going to die (due to common knowledge and the books title "Patroclus Fights and Dies") and there is an underlying sense of dread, like you are watching a car crash happen in slow motion from beginning to end and you cannot do anything to stop it. The description of his death was much more detailed than all the other deaths that had happened so far, and so it was much easier to envision the first blow he takes, and then the final, killing blow of Hector. Then, as a cherry on top of the dark sundae, Homer decided to add a prophesy of doom for Hector, spoken as the very last and dying words of Patroclus. How deliciously dreadful!
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree with this post. I enjoyed the foretelling component of the story, even though, as you say, it is "dark and twisted". Homer does a good job of fully developing characters like Patroclus even though we know he will die. Patroclus' death is an obvious turning point in the story and though we are saddened to loose a character the audience has grown attached to, it is the fulfilling of a foretelling and farther proof of the Gods' power. It is interesting that even though he dies, it takes three people to kill him. He is one of the only soldiers to die by the combined effort of three others.
DeleteI particularly enjoyed Patroclus's death in this section of The Iliad. It was painful to hear Hector taunt the dying Patroclus; the irony of the situation was almost palpable and you could almost see Hector's doom coming down upon him with Patroclus's dying breath. Also remarkable about this scene, and really books 15 and 16, is the new light that Homer displays Hector in. Hector doesn't appear to be the hero he was in the earlier books- he runs away from battle twice, he makes empty boasts about defeating Achilles and taunts a dying man. It really feels like Homer is setting up Hector, and therefore the Trojans, for their last big fall.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this idea that Hector has been put into a new, more sinister, light. Beforehand, Hector was viewed as a family man, and a more compassionate and heart-warming hero than the other more brutal and heartless of the bunch. Book 16 really seemed to spin Hector around 180 degrees and make us view his as a more evil and dark character. I believe that Homer did this as a kindness for the reader, making it easy to accept and let go after his impending death.
DeleteI agree with this. In previous books as well as the movie, Hector is seen as having good characteristics and with us knowing he is destined to be killed by Achilles, almost makes him a victim. But having him taunt Patroclus, and do other non heroic things like run from battle, Hector is a becoming more of a villain than a heroic victim
DeleteI really agree with this. Hector is seen in so many different lights throughout books 15-17, and his taunting really makes you feel sympathy for the Greeks. Here was a man so scared of Achilles that he turn and ran and now he is taunting over his dead body. It makes the side your routing for much easier.
DeleteI thought this series of the books kind of took Hector down a notch now that he hasnt beat Ajax in battle without divine intervention, and seeing how he is the finest Trojan fighter, it shows that the Trojans are actually only winning via the gods
DeleteI know there are a bunch of replies on this comment, but I just had to throw in that I totally agree with all of you. Definitely agree that the Trojans were only winning because of the gods, and that Hector is becoming more a villain. Homer has to do this though because you know that Achilles eventually kills Hector, but up til now Homer has been building Hector up as this awesome savage (whether it was because of the gods or not.) Esp the scene with his wife and son, you start to sway to sympathize with Hector. But the audience doesn't want to feel sorry for Hector when he dies, so Homer had to bring him down from a "god-like" hero
DeleteI also thought the taunting and fighting over the bodies during the fighting was painful to read. Not only do these soldiers give their lives in these fights, but they are taunted and fought over after their death, rather than being left to die with honor.
DeleteThe episode that I found most interesting was Patroclus's death. This intrigued me only because it allows for the story to be advanced and signals the begging of Achilles's rampage and ultimately the fall of Troy. I like that Homer is in a way forcing the battle of Achilles and and Hector with the way this scene plays out. Foreshadowing that for which we all are waiting for.
ReplyDeleteI also chose this as my favorite part. I think it's particularly interesting how the gods play such a central role in this way, forwarding the plot to its preordained finish as established way back when Thetis asks Zeus to make Achilles great. It's a distinctly non-modern way of telling the story by revealing its end so far in advance, something that I find uniquely interesting.
DeleteMy favorite scene during Books 15-17 is actually at the beginning of Book 15. It is when Zeus wakes up and realizes that he has been tricked by Hera and Poseidon and is infuriated. I think it is really interesting to see the relationships between all the gods. They are just like us, completely manipulating, but also hilarious. I think it was hilarious that Zeus, rather than tell Poseidon himself to back off of the Trojan war, sends Iris to tell him. I also really liked this part because it shows for the first time in the Iliad the relationship between two of the three all-powerful gods (Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades). It was funny that Poseidon, in all his pride, didn't actually say Zeus could beat him, but rather left with the excuse that he simply didn't want to deal with the drama.
ReplyDeleteI also thought it was interesting how on page 407 in Book 15, that Hector's death by Achilles predicted, or basically told to us.
I also really liked the scene of Zeus waking up and realizing he has been tricked. This is one of the first times we have seen Zeus portrayed as a character not in complete and total control of his environment. He is the most powerful god and is referred to as Father by many mortals. Most of the gods and goddesses express freight towards Zeus and seem to tip-toe around him. It is interesting that Hera and Poseidon care enough about the mortal fight to actually trick him.
DeleteThe books that feature the gods interacting among themselves are some of my favorites. I too enjoyed the fighting between Zeus and Poseidon. I really wish it had come to blows. Personally, I look forward to more mythological encounters. Men fighting men is interesting, but I long to see Minotaurs, Chimeras, and Cyclopes.
DeleteMy favorite episode from these three books would have to be the death of Patroclus. His death seemed to be to play an important initial role and an important role for the future as well. His involvement and deaths seemed to spark the greeks for the remainder of this book, and even the mighty Hector was running scared at the sight of him in Achilles armor. Also this is important because its really the first time we've seen Achilles somewhat take part in the war, it may show his slight shift in feelings and possibly lead to Achilles entry into the war.
ReplyDeleteKinda cliched, but I kinda didnt want to stop reading. I was pretty jacked to see Achilles start finally do some battle. I also felt that book 15 was a good example of how scared the rest of the gods really are of Zeus.
ReplyDeleteI agree. Having us end where we did was tantalizing as we are finally just about to see Achilles enter the action, which was the reason I chose the death of Patroclus as my favorite part. When I reached the end of this section after all the build up to Achilles entering the action and he still had not I felt deeply inclined to read ahead.
DeleteI too found the death of Patroclus to be extremely captivating, but seeing as how many people wrote about this example, I'm going to write about the last part of Chapter 15 because I thoroughly enjoyed Homer's portrayal of Ajax and Hector and how the plot was told. Specifically, how Homer repeats certain phrases after allowing each man the ability to rally his fighters. On page 403, after Hector persuades his men to follow him and fight, Homer writes, "That was his cry, as Hector put fresh fighting spirit in each man." Then Homer continues with Ajax preaching to his troops, again ending with "And that was Ajax' cry, as the giant put fresh fighting spirit in each men." I thought this was a perfect example of "epic" poetry because it felt like Homer was creating a puzzle with two men reciting their "build-up speeches", back to back, both ending in simple statements that were heavy with meaning. Another interesting element was the continual references to lions, or large cats, as if to help the reader visualize these men as large beasts with massive amounts of energy who were ready for battle. Homer writes, "now like a pride of man-eating lions the Trojan forces stormed the fleet," (406) again later using the same simile, "and Hector lunged again like a murderous lion mad for kills" (408) and lastly, "leaving the center free for the big cat's pounce." For some reason the repetition throughout this battle scene was extremely intriguing and further heightened my appreciation for Homer's beautiful writing techniques.
ReplyDeleteI also really liked Homers use of repeated lines at the end of Book 15. I may be incorrect, but I think this is an example of formulaic speech. It seems funny that this would rouse the troops. I'd think that if one side heard their leader repeat the same words of encouragement that their enemies' leader had said, they wouldn't be very inspired.
DeleteAlong with many other posts, I found Patroclus' death to be an interesting and captivating experience, and one that definitely seemed to turn the tide on the war. With Hector surging with power and the gods spurring him on and fighting at his back, it seemed as if the Trojans were going to break the Achaens lines and make a fight towards the ships. Patroclus then begs Achilles for his armor, and goes on a rout slaughtering countless Trojans. Now here is where I find it to be interesting: Zeus ultimately decides the fate of Patroclus, which shows how much of an impact the gods truly have on the war. After Hector slays Patroclus it strikes a fire within Achilles, making him want vengeance for his fallen friend. This part in the book seems to mark the end of the domination of the Trojans, as Achilles prepares to fight.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. With Patrocles dead, we can finally see Achilles join the fight, turning the war in the Achean's favor again
DeleteMy favorite scene in Chapters 15-17 is in the beginning of book 15 when Zeus gives his lengthy speech. I particularly enjoyed this part because of the foretelling he does in regards to the victor of the 10-year battle, as well as the future of the Achaeans and Trojans. This section again attests to Zeus' superiority over mortals and immortals alike. He makes it clear how predestination is a binding concept and that the fates of these armies are sealed. This is an interesting and unusual literary technique, but it works. I find myself continuing to stay at rapt attention despite the fact that I know how the story is going to end.
ReplyDeleteSo although these books were jam packed with some great scenes, most that were already mentioned, I found myself laughing hysterically at the very start of Book 16. We talked some in class about the supposed relationship between Patroclus and Achilles, and I felt like the dialogue at the beginning of this book gives some insight on the dynamics of their relationship. Achilles brutally insults Patroclus as he compares him to a baby girl, crying, running to her mother, and it is a pretty lengthy metaphor at that. And even though I get that it is a high strung time in battle, Patroclus barely acknowledges and basically ignores it and gets to business. And then Achilles hears him out and takes his advice. I really appreciate all the comic relief. Thanks Homer!
ReplyDeleteI found these three books to be rather dull and repetitive. The incessant back and forth nature of the fighting became monotonous. Compared to chapter 14 none of these books were all that great. I'm excited to see Achilles enter the battle and more than anything I hope he changes the nature of the battles. I feel as though much of the fighting consists of great Greek or Trojan heroes killing lesser men. On the other hand, I was happy to see both Patroclus and Sarpedon go down (contradicting myself here?). My favorite portions of ch 15-17 occur when great warriors battles great warriors.
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree. I think the situation that the Achaeans are left in at the end of Book 15 coupled with the extremely brutal battle of Book 16 makes for a pretty exciting read. Plus, we get to see Zeus almost face off with his younger brother Poseidon. I thought it was all pretty interesting. Also, as far as great warriors go, we've already seen Hector battle the big Ajax and the somewhat pitiful battle between Menelaus and Paris, which were all pretty sweet.
DeleteMy favorite episode was in book 16, specifically Patroclus' death. In this book we finally see the rise and fall of Patroclus, which we have known for a while was coming and will lead to the involvement of Achilles in the fighting. However, Patroclus' didn't go down without a fight. With the aid of Achilles' armor, he drove the Trojans from within arms reach of the ships all the way back to the walls of troy. Even according to Homer: "And then and there the Acheans might have taken Troy, her towering gates toppling under Patroclus' power...", if not for Apollo's intervention in driving back Patroclus. With Patroclus dead, we now know that Achilles will finally return to the fight.
ReplyDeleteI really liked book 16 due to its excellent sense of forboding and just how fated Patroclus seems to be. It was very interesting to me that Patroclus did not need any godly intervention to get Achilles to give him his armor. One would assume that even in his rage Achilles would have shown more care for his friend. I also found the scene where Achilles asks Zeus to spare his friend, even while the audience knows Zeus already promised to kill him, really interesting.
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