A blog for Willamette University's class CLAS 171 "Love and War, Gods and Heroes: Greek and Roman Epic Poetry." Used for discussions of the epics of Homer, Hesiod, Vergil, and Lucan.
Friday, January 20, 2012
Iliad, Book 3-5
Katy Caroline Collins as the title character of the play "Helen" (Vintage Theater Collective Chicago, 2011)
What's your favorite episode in books 3-5, and
why? (response & 2 comments on classmates' posts due by Tues., 1/24/12, before class)
While books three to five were filled with anecdotes that I found interesting and captivating, there were a number that caught my eye in particular. These were typically the ones which dealt with the female characters; the episode starting on page 141 where Helen reprimands Paris and Aphrodite for instance. But the section that I found most engaging began on page 187 and follows Hera and Athena as they prepare for and join the battle. I found the display of power and ferocity attributed to them to be uniquely uncharacteristic of Greek and Roman views of women. The tone of awe with which Homer describes the goddesses and the power that they possess both intrigued and pleased me. He describes them as “terrifying,” and “blazing,” and when Athena joins the battle she helps to strike down Ares, turning the tide of the battle. This is the last section of book five and I found it to be my favorite part of the Iliad so far.
Of books 3-5, I found book five to be my favorite. To me it seems to be the first instance in which the mortals can actually take action against the gods. Even though Diomedes is being spurned on my Athena he actually strikes a blow against Aphrodite, Ares and Apollo. In each attack the god is so very surprised at Diomedes and that he could even think of trying to hurt a god. Which to me seems like a form of justice, because the gods are what caused this whole war. Aphrodite most of all, and she is the first victim to Diomedes. I liked the sense of victory for the mortals against the "all powerful" gods.
I totally agree that it seems like a form of justice. It's almost like the men at war are at the mercy of the gods and book five with Diomedes' tale definitely gave me a sense of justice. It is as if the gods are playing out their conflicts with each other through the mortal men, using them as puppets. And they always seem to cry to Father Zeus, after the fact.
I couldn't agree more with this post. This book gave me a whole different sense of how I viewed gods. As someone who hasn't studied much into greek mythology, I had preconceived notion of these all powerful gods. But this book has made it clear that's not the case.
I agree that the act of Diomedes injuring the gods is some form of justice. Too often the humans are just the gods playthings, spurring them into battle whenever they see fit, killing thousands. It is strangely refreshing to see a god have to bear atleast some small part of the damage caused by the war.
Out of books 3-5, I enjoyed book number 3 the most. I enjoyed it because it was familiar to me since my knowledge base for this class now consists of the movie Troy and the first two chapters of the book we read for the last assignment... I liked noticing the differences in the plot line of the movie versus the book, and how much the removal of a scene involving an immortal really changed the plot of the movie. Seeing how the directors were able to make up for that was very interesting. My least favorite chapter was chapter 5. There were way to many names to keep track of, and I found it overwhelming. Therefore, I was not able to pull a lot from that chapter, except that a lot of people died, the gods intervened a lot to save their children's lives, and everyone wears bronze things.
I agree that the amount of names and who they killed were fairly overwhelming. However, I am guessing that to the people who heard these stories that these were household names. So the people probably wanted to hear about their favorite heroes and they got a footnote of sorts.
I'm in the same boat as you in that almost all of my prior knowledge concerning the Iliad comes from the movie Troy. Until this class I hadn't even realized that it was based on the Iliad. My appreciation for the movie has definitely increased and I enjoy having it as a visual reference for the vivid episodes described by Homer. Noticing where the movie diverges from the poem has also been entertaining.
I discussed this in my blog post as well. Highlighting the difference between the way in which the movie is portrayed in comparison to Homer's Iliad, provides an entertaining element. I now appreciate the book more than the movie because the gods add more of an imaginative element. That being said, I don't think the movie would have been as intriguing to me if they added the gods because it wouldn't have felt as real. Reading Homer's book doesn't provide a visual like the movie does but your mind creates the visual itself, so the use of gods intervening in a battle, such as the scene with Aphrodite when she saves Paris is easier for ones mind to wrap around his immediate disappearance.
There may have been a lot of names floatiing around, but when it was down to the bare bones of it, it seems all that matters to Homer is whos getting a spear through the face-Noyes
I agree with the above post that the scene with Aphrodite would have not made sense or felt real at all in the movie. I did not like however, that the directors had to change the plot line around so much in the movie for the accommodation for that scene. I believe the drastic change gives us proof that writing these stories without the use of the gods can be very detrimental to the overall feel of the story, just as we looked at in class.
I also feel that Homer uses far too many names. Many of the names he mentions refer to people perhaps important in the Ancient Greek world, but not necessarily to the characters and story itself. I find that this distracts the reader from the story.
Yeah, I thought that about book 5 as well. Although, I am sure it was important to Homer at the time because it was a way of recording history, lending credence to the story, or perhaps something as vain as showing everyone how great his memory was when he recited the Iliad aloud. Anyway, I’m sure he droned on with names for what he thought was a good reason at the time.
Out of these books, my favorite was book 5. I especially enjoyed how Athena tries to force Diomedes into doing what she wants, but he ends up striking Aphrodite and going after Ares and Apollo too. It was so funny to read about this, mainly because it reminded me of how in class we were talking about how a lot of the time mortals seem to just be puppets of the gods, but in this case a mortal thought for themselves.
I also agree with that, it shows that the gods aren't "all" powerful and can't make humans do exactly what they want. I think it is interesting how gods in Greek culture were seen as powerful, but full of flaws. It keeps similarities between humans and gods and makes it seem like anyone might be capable of being a god.
I like this analysis. It isn't often that you see a human go against the will of the gods, or have the opportunity to fight and injure a god directly. Often the main motivation for actions can be traced right to a god's intervention, but in this case it seems Diomedes made a decision for himself. This serves as an example of the humans not just being toys for the gods to wage war with freely, that they have at least some level of independent thinking.
Book five was awesome. I had a ton of fun reading about Diomedes and I don't care if I sound like a nerd. I know that the Iliad is biased towards the Greeks, but i can't help but hate the Trojans and Aphrodite and Apollo. The Trojans as a whole (aside from a few, like Hector) seem cowardly. I was taken aback at how childish Apollo acts when he tattles on Diomedes, making up lies and spinning the truth. But I found it hilarious when Zeus calls him out on it. I also found it funny when Athena mocks Aphrodite saying, "she's pricked her limp wrist on a golden pinpoint!" (178.) On a totally different note, I enjoy the gory detail of war and the very specific hits of the spears and what not.
I agree with your comment regarding enjoying the gory detail of war and how Homer discusses the use of spears. Before reading the Iliad, I never thought I would be interested in reading about war but the way in which Homer describes certain details, for example the repetition of the word bronze armor, helped make the scenes easier to envision.
Yeah, the cowardice of the majority of the Trojans and the actions of Aphrodite and Apollo were a bit infuriating. After Book 5 the Trojans (except for Hector) just seem like cannon fodder for the Greek champions. This, I think, puts the cowardice of Paris at the end of Book 3 into perspective a bit.
My favorite chapter has to be chapter 5. Due to the movie Troy, which focused on many negative traits of the Greek leaders, I have always favored the Trojans in this conflict. As such, I really enjoyed when the Trojan's started winning, due to the help of Ares. I also appreciate how powerful Hector sees in this section. While the Greeks have a large number of heroes on the front lines (and one who isn't) the Trojans have one major hero, hector, who seems to be turning the tide of the battle. Also, I enjoy envisioning the deaths of minor heroes, which are greatly detailed by Homer.
This turn of events throughout the book was something I really enjoyed. I felt like these chapters really had alot of rising and falling throughout them which was great. Like I stated in an earlier post there was never a dull moment, and this changing was a big part of that. You can never really tell which way this war was going to go.
I agree with ryan that these chapters are very intriguing to read because of the ups and downs that take place during them. Especially when the Gods get involved.
I would say the part I enjoyed most was the conversation between Aphrodite and Helen after Paris looses against Menelaus. It is one of the longer conversations between a mortal(I guess she is actually 1/2 god) and a god. Helens questioning of Aphrodite as well as her suggesting that she become mortal for him is a really powerful speech. The retort of Aphrodite though just serves to further demonstrate the superiority of the gods over mortals.
I liked this part as well. It struck me as ironic that the whole war started in result of Helen going with Paris back to Troy and in this scene Helen shows guilt and does not want to cause more war. But Aphrodite threatens her and forces her to go to Paris, which yes, shows the superiority of the gods but also reveals a fault. It only stresses more so that the mortals are merely puppets to the gods and this war is almost like a game to them.
This was one of my favorite scenes as well. In Homer's world it often seems that unless you are a goddess, women have very little value aside from being treated like cattle. I enjoyed the spark of life that we see in Helen here and was rooting for her as she stood up to both Aphrodite and Paris.
I agree. It was brave/foolish/out of the ordinary for Helen, a mortal, to question and even threaten a god, and she was put back in her place pretty quickly. I definitely think it was a message Homer was trying to send
I really like how this scene highlights the god's highest pursuit: entertainment. More often than not, the gods are seeking nothing than entertainment. In this sense, the reader is in a position similar to the god. They are also seeking entertainment from the story.
I think this scene is particularly interesting because after Helen expreses remorse for causing the war, she lies down to bed with Paris during battle. This scene occurs while the Trojan army is preparing to fight and die in a war directly caused by Paris. It is ironic that the Achaeans feel so betrayed and disgusted by Paris' actions when they are directly result of the gods' intervention. Paris did not flee battle with Menelaus willingly, he was whisked away by his goddess mother. Helen did not lay down into bed with him voluntarily, she was encouraged by Athena. These incidents farther exemplify the gods' use of mortals for entertainment value.
I also really liked this scene. I thought it was interesting how Helen reacted to Paris leaving the battle in that she cared so much about honor and what other people thought, which really gave some insight into Greek values.
I particularly enjoyed book 5. It was full of blood shed and adventure, there was always a moment of excitement. My favorite part would have to be when Diomedes was given god like strength. This just painted an amazing image into my head, especially the description of fire used in the beginning of the story. Also the proceeding events that followed because of it like Ares entering into the battle, left the story without a dull moment.
I think that description is one of the best aspects of this epic. The battle descriptions are so vivid that one can easily imagine the happenings of any situation. The battle descriptions are so gruesome, that they add to the sense of awe a reader could get, especially when reading about someone such as Diomedes.
I agree. Homer really pulled out all the stops on the imagry in these battle scenes and it made for some good reading. Diomedes'part in this book was one of the most enjoyable little story lines yet.
I like that Homer seams to step up his descriptions during these battle seems. It really draws you in as you read, yet he balances the amount of gorry description just right so its not to much.
I enjoyed Hector heckling Paris for running from the fight. His insults were powerful and true- it was Paris's fault that they were all dying and he was being craven. I was a bit disappointed with Paris's response. I expected him to get angry, not roll over and take it.
I thought that was a pretty interesting scene also. I found it funny that Helen was angry with Paris after Aphrodite removed him from his duel, but then immediately after go into bed with him. It is as if his closest friends and family are starting to go against him
I found the scene with Paris and Helen to be irritating. I felt like Helen just automatically jumping into bed with him after she seemed to be so angry and standing up for her self pathetic. I felt like the view of women years ago really showed its ugly face in this one.
I find that scene to be very amusing. Essentially everyone who is described to Prium by Helen is a paragon of strength, power, and courage. Then, on the other end of the spectrum, you have Paris, a man who dresses like Hercules but scuttles back into his ranks the minute he spots Menelaus approaching menacingly.
I also liked Book 5 the most. I found it very entertaining and action packed as well as a fluid read. My favorite part was when Diomedes received his god like power and single handedly impacted the battle. The imagery used was very easy to picture, the descriptions of the characters and settings painted faces and landscapes in my mind. I especially found the scene entertaining when Diomedes killed an opponent by throwing a spear.
My favorite chapter was chapter 3 because before I started this class I had no background knowledge of the Iliad, so I chose to watch the movie Troy. Immediately, I noticed that the plot was different when depicting the fight between Paris and Menelaus over Helen, in that the gods were a significant part in the outcome of the quarrel as well as Hectors behavior towards his brother Paris before the fight begins. In the movie, Hector saves his brother but in the book I was extremely shocked by Hector's harsh tone when calling his brother a coward. Hector's words cause Paris to enter into a deathly match against Menelaus, further highlighting Hectors ability to sway his brothers opinion.
The most significant change was the prominent role in which the gods hold during the fight. I was extremely intrigued when Aphrodite swoops in to save Paris from Menelaus. This was the first time that I truly realized the imaginative nature within the Iliad. I found it fascinating that Aphrodite was able to remove Paris from the fight, making him completely disappear. "Aphrodite snatched Paris away, easy work for a god, wrapped him in swirls of mist and set him down in his bedroom..." (141). The beautiful imagery that was conveyed by Homer allows one to envision a cloud of dust covering/hiding Paris's body before Aphrodite places him in his bedroom in order to converse with an upset Helen.
My favorite episode is from the end of Chapter 4 when Zeus sends Athena to reignite the mortal war. She finds Pandarus and convinces him to shoot Menelaus with an arrow. Another goddess intervenes, protecting Menelaus from a fatal injury. Panderus' act of aggression angers the Achaeans, who are already upset at Paris and the Trojans who they feel deliberately broke their earlier truce agreement. I find this scene interesting because it actually reignites the war, having a significant impact on the future of the mortals. This is a particularly interesting episode when seen alongside Paris' fleeing of battle with Menelaus. In both of these incidents the Achaeans feel disrespected by the Trojans when in fact both acts were caused by the Gods. This is an example of how much influence the Gods have over the everyday life of the humans. It seems as if the humans are merely puppets for the Gods to manipulate. However, despite the mortal's entertainment value, the Gods and Goddesses appear to develop intense personal connections with them and intervene in battle on their behalf.
Easily my favorite was Book 5 simply because of the intricate detail that went into describing the battle after the treaty was broke, and of course Diomeds pretty epic holy flaming beast mode. I also thought the description of Agamemnon marshalling the other Kings and their armies was a great show of why exactly he was leading this army. I found it strange however that Zeus folded to Athena and Heras desire to break the truce so easily to simply avoid a family problem when an entire city is at stake when all it really is is a debate between two men.
I agree that Zeus folded uncharacteristically easily to Hera and Athena's will, but to me it showed just how much mortals problems and politics are like a chess game to the God's and though one or two pieces might be cared for more carefully than others, it's still only a game (Jmackay)
I found that my favorite parts also is the same as others in the class because I was most intrigued by the depictions of the battles in the 5th book. The particular part that sticks out to me most is when Diomed kills Astynous and Hypeiron by spearing one in the chest and the other with the absolute display of strength, that is shattering a mans collar bone with a sword. Also, when he adds to this by destroying a vast about of the opposing force while he runs around as a literal a human torch. These depictions were extremely interesting to read for me.
My favorite section of these books was the "fight" between Menelaus and Paris and the ensuing scene. The way in which Homer described the battle was very clear and concise, the images vivid and moving. When Menelaus is cheated of his victory by Athena I could just see the Achaean forces shock and dismay. When Menelaus is shot by Pandarus, the great archer who was played by Athena, I was fascinated by his bow. I've always been a fan of archers, especially the long bowman of England, but I have never heard of such a fantastic bow. I guess that's what an Epic is all about. Both of those scenes were very well done and by far my favorites.
The section of the reading that was my personal favorite was book 5, specifically the actions of Diomedes on the battlefield. He was a seemingly invincible man(blessed by Athena, though the Trojans didn't know that) who conquered so many in battle, human and god alike. He took arrows to the shoulder, spears to the chest, and kept on fighting like nothing happened. Its unusual to see a human (even with help from other gods) injure a god on the battlefield and force them to retreat to tend their wounds.
My favorite episode out of these three books is the one where Diomedes spears Aphrodite through the wrist, and how Aphrodite handles it. I just think the way the episode was described was really funny in that Aphrodite, who is supposed to be an all-powerful god, retreats to her mother on Olympus. I also think it was funny how Diomedes didn't care to injure a god at all, whereas I feel like most men would be too terrified to ever go against the gods.
I agree Diomedes seemed unstoppable the way he took all of that damage and then was slaughtering the Trojan soldiers left and right, however when he went against apollo, apollo just pushed him away like he was nothing
Ny favorite out of books 3 to 5 would definitely have to be number 3 and 4. Basically what I thought was the best scene so far in the book was the so called fight between Menelaus and Paris, which turned out to be a fluke and did not really happen. The description of the battle, which was not more than an altercation, was extremely vivid and detailed. And once again we can see just how big of a role that the gods play in this story, when Athena saves Menelaus from Paris for the time being.
Though I enjoyed episodes of Book V the most, this episode also stood out to me because of Helen's reaction. Paris' lack of honor is highlighted and that Helen responds to it with disappointment and anger is refreshing. She comments that no one will respect her if she continues her relationship with this man (Jmackay)
Like most everyone else, my favorite book was V as well. My reasoning is slightly juvenile but genuine; the battles and violence were captivating. Specifically in the fifth book, as Diomedes is blessed by Athena and allowed to fight the gods on the battlefield, I enjoyed how the god's pettiness is highlighted. Of course, Aphrodite, being a godess with no war like responsibilities, seems extremely weak and pathetic as Diomedes cuts her wrist. More entertaining to me however, was Ares injury. His wound may have been more gruesome, but as he is a god I never felt worried for his wellbeing. His interaction with his father is what makes the episode best. Zeus tells him that if Ares was not his own blood, he would have cursed him into Tartarus with the Titans. Not only is Zeus' judgement harsh, but because of the spear wound has become a sniveling wreck, something one would not expect from the god of war
After reading books 3-5, I found that i liked the same part a lot of others liked in the class, This of course being the part in book five where diomedes becomes god like and goes on a Trojan killing spree. It comes at no surprise that so many liked this part because the detail really made it an entertaining read that showed the brutal side of combat
My favorite episode in Books 3-5 has to be the ‘duel’, so to speak, between Paris and Menelaus. As a part of this ‘episode’ I am including Helen’s introduction of the Greek commanders, the duel, and the aftermath. The introduction of selected Greeks, which Priam demands of Helen, is really fun. We get a brief but powerful description of Agamemnon, Odysseus, and Ajax. We also hear about Helen’s brothers here, Castor breaker of horses and the hardy boxer Polydeuces (I didn’t understand why they weren’t outside of Troy with the rest of the Greeks). Next, we see the sacrifice to Zeus, the Sun and the Earth (I believe). I enjoyed this scene because of how visual it was and graphic in nature, particularly with cutting the throats of the sacrificial goats. Next we see the duel, sort of. It is evident in this scene that Menelaus is passionate about his vengeance on Paris. The prayer he says to Zeus before he hurled his spear was very powerful. Finally, the reader/audience is struck dumb by the cowardice of Paris as Aphrodite carries him away from the duel. Aphrodite was the only one who gave Paris any sympathy, every one else, even his ‘wife’ Helen, thought him craven. I felt like I was nearly as enraged as the Achaeans who found that they had to stay to finish the war.
While books three to five were filled with anecdotes that I found interesting and captivating, there were a number that caught my eye in particular. These were typically the ones which dealt with the female characters; the episode starting on page 141 where Helen reprimands Paris and Aphrodite for instance. But the section that I found most engaging began on page 187 and follows Hera and Athena as they prepare for and join the battle. I found the display of power and ferocity attributed to them to be uniquely uncharacteristic of Greek and Roman views of women. The tone of awe with which Homer describes the goddesses and the power that they possess both intrigued and pleased me. He describes them as “terrifying,” and “blazing,” and when Athena joins the battle she helps to strike down Ares, turning the tide of the battle. This is the last section of book five and I found it to be my favorite part of the Iliad so far.
ReplyDeleteOf books 3-5, I found book five to be my favorite. To me it seems to be the first instance in which the mortals can actually take action against the gods. Even though Diomedes is being spurned on my Athena he actually strikes a blow against Aphrodite, Ares and Apollo. In each attack the god is so very surprised at Diomedes and that he could even think of trying to hurt a god. Which to me seems like a form of justice, because the gods are what caused this whole war. Aphrodite most of all, and she is the first victim to Diomedes. I liked the sense of victory for the mortals against the "all powerful" gods.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that it seems like a form of justice. It's almost like the men at war are at the mercy of the gods and book five with Diomedes' tale definitely gave me a sense of justice. It is as if the gods are playing out their conflicts with each other through the mortal men, using them as puppets. And they always seem to cry to Father Zeus, after the fact.
DeleteI couldn't agree more with this post. This book gave me a whole different sense of how I viewed gods. As someone who hasn't studied much into greek mythology, I had preconceived notion of these all powerful gods. But this book has made it clear that's not the case.
DeleteI agree that the act of Diomedes injuring the gods is some form of justice. Too often the humans are just the gods playthings, spurring them into battle whenever they see fit, killing thousands. It is strangely refreshing to see a god have to bear atleast some small part of the damage caused by the war.
DeleteOut of books 3-5, I enjoyed book number 3 the most. I enjoyed it because it was familiar to me since my knowledge base for this class now consists of the movie Troy and the first two chapters of the book we read for the last assignment...
ReplyDeleteI liked noticing the differences in the plot line of the movie versus the book, and how much the removal of a scene involving an immortal really changed the plot of the movie. Seeing how the directors were able to make up for that was very interesting.
My least favorite chapter was chapter 5. There were way to many names to keep track of, and I found it overwhelming. Therefore, I was not able to pull a lot from that chapter, except that a lot of people died, the gods intervened a lot to save their children's lives, and everyone wears bronze things.
I agree that the amount of names and who they killed were fairly overwhelming. However, I am guessing that to the people who heard these stories that these were household names. So the people probably wanted to hear about their favorite heroes and they got a footnote of sorts.
DeleteI'm in the same boat as you in that almost all of my prior knowledge concerning the Iliad comes from the movie Troy. Until this class I hadn't even realized that it was based on the Iliad. My appreciation for the movie has definitely increased and I enjoy having it as a visual reference for the vivid episodes described by Homer. Noticing where the movie diverges from the poem has also been entertaining.
DeleteI discussed this in my blog post as well. Highlighting the difference between the way in which the movie is portrayed in comparison to Homer's Iliad, provides an entertaining element. I now appreciate the book more than the movie because the gods add more of an imaginative element. That being said, I don't think the movie would have been as intriguing to me if they added the gods because it wouldn't have felt as real. Reading Homer's book doesn't provide a visual like the movie does but your mind creates the visual itself, so the use of gods intervening in a battle, such as the scene with Aphrodite when she saves Paris is easier for ones mind to wrap around his immediate disappearance.
DeleteThere may have been a lot of names floatiing around, but when it was down to the bare bones of it, it seems all that matters to Homer is whos getting a spear through the face-Noyes
DeleteI agree with the above post that the scene with Aphrodite would have not made sense or felt real at all in the movie. I did not like however, that the directors had to change the plot line around so much in the movie for the accommodation for that scene. I believe the drastic change gives us proof that writing these stories without the use of the gods can be very detrimental to the overall feel of the story, just as we looked at in class.
DeleteI also feel that Homer uses far too many names. Many of the names he mentions refer to people perhaps important in the Ancient Greek world, but not necessarily to the characters and story itself. I find that this distracts the reader from the story.
DeleteYeah, I thought that about book 5 as well. Although, I am sure it was important to Homer at the time because it was a way of recording history, lending credence to the story, or perhaps something as vain as showing everyone how great his memory was when he recited the Iliad aloud. Anyway, I’m sure he droned on with names for what he thought was a good reason at the time.
DeleteOut of these books, my favorite was book 5. I especially enjoyed how Athena tries to force Diomedes into doing what she wants, but he ends up striking Aphrodite and going after Ares and Apollo too. It was so funny to read about this, mainly because it reminded me of how in class we were talking about how a lot of the time mortals seem to just be puppets of the gods, but in this case a mortal thought for themselves.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with that, it shows that the gods aren't "all" powerful and can't make humans do exactly what they want. I think it is interesting how gods in Greek culture were seen as powerful, but full of flaws. It keeps similarities between humans and gods and makes it seem like anyone might be capable of being a god.
DeleteI like this analysis. It isn't often that you see a human go against the will of the gods, or have the opportunity to fight and injure a god directly. Often the main motivation for actions can be traced right to a god's intervention, but in this case it seems Diomedes made a decision for himself. This serves as an example of the humans not just being toys for the gods to wage war with freely, that they have at least some level of independent thinking.
DeleteBook five was awesome. I had a ton of fun reading about Diomedes and I don't care if I sound like a nerd. I know that the Iliad is biased towards the Greeks, but i can't help but hate the Trojans and Aphrodite and Apollo. The Trojans as a whole (aside from a few, like Hector) seem cowardly. I was taken aback at how childish Apollo acts when he tattles on Diomedes, making up lies and spinning the truth. But I found it hilarious when Zeus calls him out on it. I also found it funny when Athena mocks Aphrodite saying, "she's pricked her limp wrist on a golden pinpoint!" (178.) On a totally different note, I enjoy the gory detail of war and the very specific hits of the spears and what not.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your comment regarding enjoying the gory detail of war and how Homer discusses the use of spears. Before reading the Iliad, I never thought I would be interested in reading about war but the way in which Homer describes certain details, for example the repetition of the word bronze armor, helped make the scenes easier to envision.
DeleteYeah, the cowardice of the majority of the Trojans and the actions of Aphrodite and Apollo were a bit infuriating. After Book 5 the Trojans (except for Hector) just seem like cannon fodder for the Greek champions. This, I think, puts the cowardice of Paris at the end of Book 3 into perspective a bit.
DeleteMy favorite chapter has to be chapter 5. Due to the movie Troy, which focused on many negative traits of the Greek leaders, I have always favored the Trojans in this conflict. As such, I really enjoyed when the Trojan's started winning, due to the help of Ares. I also appreciate how powerful Hector sees in this section. While the Greeks have a large number of heroes on the front lines (and one who isn't) the Trojans have one major hero, hector, who seems to be turning the tide of the battle. Also, I enjoy envisioning the deaths of minor heroes, which are greatly detailed by Homer.
ReplyDeleteThis turn of events throughout the book was something I really enjoyed. I felt like these chapters really had alot of rising and falling throughout them which was great. Like I stated in an earlier post there was never a dull moment, and this changing was a big part of that. You can never really tell which way this war was going to go.
DeleteI agree with ryan that these chapters are very intriguing to read because of the ups and downs that take place during them. Especially when the Gods get involved.
DeleteI would say the part I enjoyed most was the conversation between Aphrodite and Helen after Paris looses against Menelaus. It is one of the longer conversations between a mortal(I guess she is actually 1/2 god) and a god. Helens questioning of Aphrodite as well as her suggesting that she become mortal for him is a really powerful speech. The retort of Aphrodite though just serves to further demonstrate the superiority of the gods over mortals.
ReplyDeleteI liked this part as well. It struck me as ironic that the whole war started in result of Helen going with Paris back to Troy and in this scene Helen shows guilt and does not want to cause more war. But Aphrodite threatens her and forces her to go to Paris, which yes, shows the superiority of the gods but also reveals a fault. It only stresses more so that the mortals are merely puppets to the gods and this war is almost like a game to them.
DeleteThis was one of my favorite scenes as well. In Homer's world it often seems that unless you are a goddess, women have very little value aside from being treated like cattle. I enjoyed the spark of life that we see in Helen here and was rooting for her as she stood up to both Aphrodite and Paris.
DeleteI agree. It was brave/foolish/out of the ordinary for Helen, a mortal, to question and even threaten a god, and she was put back in her place pretty quickly. I definitely think it was a message Homer was trying to send
DeleteI really like how this scene highlights the god's highest pursuit: entertainment. More often than not, the gods are seeking nothing than entertainment. In this sense, the reader is in a position similar to the god. They are also seeking entertainment from the story.
DeleteI think this scene is particularly interesting because after Helen expreses remorse for causing the war, she lies down to bed with Paris during battle. This scene occurs while the Trojan army is preparing to fight and die in a war directly caused by Paris. It is ironic that the Achaeans feel so betrayed and disgusted by Paris' actions when they are directly result of the gods' intervention. Paris did not flee battle with Menelaus willingly, he was whisked away by his goddess mother. Helen did not lay down into bed with him voluntarily, she was encouraged by Athena. These incidents farther exemplify the gods' use of mortals for entertainment value.
DeleteI also really liked this scene. I thought it was interesting how Helen reacted to Paris leaving the battle in that she cared so much about honor and what other people thought, which really gave some insight into Greek values.
DeleteI particularly enjoyed book 5. It was full of blood shed and adventure, there was always a moment of excitement. My favorite part would have to be when Diomedes was given god like strength. This just painted an amazing image into my head, especially the description of fire used in the beginning of the story. Also the proceeding events that followed because of it like Ares entering into the battle, left the story without a dull moment.
ReplyDeleteI think that description is one of the best aspects of this epic. The battle descriptions are so vivid that one can easily imagine the happenings of any situation. The battle descriptions are so gruesome, that they add to the sense of awe a reader could get, especially when reading about someone such as Diomedes.
DeleteI agree. Homer really pulled out all the stops on the imagry in these battle scenes and it made for some good reading. Diomedes'part in this book was one of the most enjoyable little story lines yet.
DeleteI like that Homer seams to step up his descriptions during these battle seems. It really draws you in as you read, yet he balances the amount of gorry description just right so its not to much.
DeleteI enjoyed Hector heckling Paris for running from the fight. His insults were powerful and true- it was Paris's fault that they were all dying and he was being craven. I was a bit disappointed with Paris's response. I expected him to get angry, not roll over and take it.
ReplyDeleteI thought that was a pretty interesting scene also. I found it funny that Helen was angry with Paris after Aphrodite removed him from his duel, but then immediately after go into bed with him. It is as if his closest friends and family are starting to go against him
DeleteI found the scene with Paris and Helen to be irritating. I felt like Helen just automatically jumping into bed with him after she seemed to be so angry and standing up for her self pathetic. I felt like the view of women years ago really showed its ugly face in this one.
DeleteI find that scene to be very amusing. Essentially everyone who is described to Prium by Helen is a paragon of strength, power, and courage. Then, on the other end of the spectrum, you have Paris, a man who dresses like Hercules but scuttles back into his ranks the minute he spots Menelaus approaching menacingly.
DeleteI also liked Book 5 the most. I found it very entertaining and action packed as well as a fluid read. My favorite part was when Diomedes received his god like power and single handedly impacted the battle. The imagery used was very easy to picture, the descriptions of the characters and settings painted faces and landscapes in my mind. I especially found the scene entertaining when Diomedes killed an opponent by throwing a spear.
ReplyDeleteIt was kind of impressive that Homer was able to use verbage like that and paint a mental picture like that.- Noyes
DeleteMy favorite chapter was chapter 3 because before I started this class I had no background knowledge of the Iliad, so I chose to watch the movie Troy. Immediately, I noticed that the plot was different when depicting the fight between Paris and Menelaus over Helen, in that the gods were a significant part in the outcome of the quarrel as well as Hectors behavior towards his brother Paris before the fight begins. In the movie, Hector saves his brother but in the book I was extremely shocked by Hector's harsh tone when calling his brother a coward. Hector's words cause Paris to enter into a deathly match against Menelaus, further highlighting Hectors ability to sway his brothers opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe most significant change was the prominent role in which the gods hold during the fight. I was extremely intrigued when Aphrodite swoops in to save Paris from Menelaus. This was the first time that I truly realized the imaginative nature within the Iliad. I found it fascinating that Aphrodite was able to remove Paris from the fight, making him completely disappear. "Aphrodite snatched Paris away, easy work for a god, wrapped him in swirls of mist and set him down in his bedroom..." (141). The beautiful imagery that was conveyed by Homer allows one to envision a cloud of dust covering/hiding Paris's body before Aphrodite places him in his bedroom in order to converse with an upset Helen.
My favorite episode is from the end of Chapter 4 when Zeus sends Athena to reignite the mortal war. She finds Pandarus and convinces him to shoot Menelaus with an arrow. Another goddess intervenes, protecting Menelaus from a fatal injury. Panderus' act of aggression angers the Achaeans, who are already upset at Paris and the Trojans who they feel deliberately broke their earlier truce agreement. I find this scene interesting because it actually reignites the war, having a significant impact on the future of the mortals. This is a particularly interesting episode when seen alongside Paris' fleeing of battle with Menelaus. In both of these incidents the Achaeans feel disrespected by the Trojans when in fact both acts were caused by the Gods. This is an example of how much influence the Gods have over the everyday life of the humans. It seems as if the humans are merely puppets for the Gods to manipulate. However, despite the mortal's entertainment value, the Gods and Goddesses appear to develop intense personal connections with them and intervene in battle on their behalf.
ReplyDeleteEasily my favorite was Book 5 simply because of the intricate detail that went into describing the battle after the treaty was broke, and of course Diomeds pretty epic holy flaming beast mode. I also thought the description of Agamemnon marshalling the other Kings and their armies was a great show of why exactly he was leading this army. I found it strange however that Zeus folded to Athena and Heras desire to break the truce so easily to simply avoid a family problem when an entire city is at stake when all it really is is a debate between two men.
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DeleteI too enjoyed this section of book 5. I thought that it was interesting how much detail that Homer put into each battle scene.
DeleteI agree that Zeus folded uncharacteristically easily to Hera and Athena's will, but to me it showed just how much mortals problems and politics are like a chess game to the God's and though one or two pieces might be cared for more carefully than others, it's still only a game (Jmackay)
DeleteI found that my favorite parts also is the same as others in the class because I was most intrigued by the depictions of the battles in the 5th book. The particular part that sticks out to me most is when Diomed kills Astynous and Hypeiron by spearing one in the chest and the other with the absolute display of strength, that is shattering a mans collar bone with a sword. Also, when he adds to this by destroying a vast about of the opposing force while he runs around as a literal a human torch. These depictions were extremely interesting to read for me.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite section of these books was the "fight" between Menelaus and Paris and the ensuing scene. The way in which Homer described the battle was very clear and concise, the images vivid and moving. When Menelaus is cheated of his victory by Athena I could just see the Achaean forces shock and dismay. When Menelaus is shot by Pandarus, the great archer who was played by Athena, I was fascinated by his bow. I've always been a fan of archers, especially the long bowman of England, but I have never heard of such a fantastic bow. I guess that's what an Epic is all about. Both of those scenes were very well done and by far my favorites.
ReplyDeleteI also really enjoyed this scene and thought it was interesting how Aphrodite had intervened, despite the pact Menelaus and Paris had made
DeleteThe section of the reading that was my personal favorite was book 5, specifically the actions of Diomedes on the battlefield. He was a seemingly invincible man(blessed by Athena, though the Trojans didn't know that) who conquered so many in battle, human and god alike. He took arrows to the shoulder, spears to the chest, and kept on fighting like nothing happened. Its unusual to see a human (even with help from other gods) injure a god on the battlefield and force them to retreat to tend their wounds.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite episode out of these three books is the one where Diomedes spears Aphrodite through the wrist, and how Aphrodite handles it. I just think the way the episode was described was really funny in that Aphrodite, who is supposed to be an all-powerful god, retreats to her mother on Olympus. I also think it was funny how Diomedes didn't care to injure a god at all, whereas I feel like most men would be too terrified to ever go against the gods.
ReplyDeleteI agree Diomedes seemed unstoppable the way he took all of that damage and then was slaughtering the Trojan soldiers left and right, however when he went against apollo, apollo just pushed him away like he was nothing
DeleteNy favorite out of books 3 to 5 would definitely have to be number 3 and 4. Basically what I thought was the best scene so far in the book was the so called fight between Menelaus and Paris, which turned out to be a fluke and did not really happen. The description of the battle, which was not more than an altercation, was extremely vivid and detailed. And once again we can see just how big of a role that the gods play in this story, when Athena saves Menelaus from Paris for the time being.
ReplyDeleteThough I enjoyed episodes of Book V the most, this episode also stood out to me because of Helen's reaction. Paris' lack of honor is highlighted and that Helen responds to it with disappointment and anger is refreshing. She comments that no one will respect her if she continues her relationship with this man (Jmackay)
DeleteLike most everyone else, my favorite book was V as well. My reasoning is slightly juvenile but genuine; the battles and violence were captivating. Specifically in the fifth book, as Diomedes is blessed by Athena and allowed to fight the gods on the battlefield, I enjoyed how the god's pettiness is highlighted. Of course, Aphrodite, being a godess with no war like responsibilities, seems extremely weak and pathetic as Diomedes cuts her wrist. More entertaining to me however, was Ares injury. His wound may have been more gruesome, but as he is a god I never felt worried for his wellbeing. His interaction with his father is what makes the episode best. Zeus tells him that if Ares was not his own blood, he would have cursed him into Tartarus with the Titans. Not only is Zeus' judgement harsh, but because of the spear wound has become a sniveling wreck, something one would not expect from the god of war
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DeleteAfter reading books 3-5, I found that i liked the same part a lot of others liked in the class, This of course being the part in book five where diomedes becomes god like and goes on a Trojan killing spree. It comes at no surprise that so many liked this part because the detail really made it an entertaining read that showed the brutal side of combat
ReplyDeleteMy favorite episode in Books 3-5 has to be the ‘duel’, so to speak, between Paris and Menelaus. As a part of this ‘episode’ I am including Helen’s introduction of the Greek commanders, the duel, and the aftermath. The introduction of selected Greeks, which Priam demands of Helen, is really fun. We get a brief but powerful description of Agamemnon, Odysseus, and Ajax. We also hear about Helen’s brothers here, Castor breaker of horses and the hardy boxer Polydeuces (I didn’t understand why they weren’t outside of Troy with the rest of the Greeks). Next, we see the sacrifice to Zeus, the Sun and the Earth (I believe). I enjoyed this scene because of how visual it was and graphic in nature, particularly with cutting the throats of the sacrificial goats. Next we see the duel, sort of. It is evident in this scene that Menelaus is passionate about his vengeance on Paris. The prayer he says to Zeus before he hurled his spear was very powerful. Finally, the reader/audience is struck dumb by the cowardice of Paris as Aphrodite carries him away from the duel. Aphrodite was the only one who gave Paris any sympathy, every one else, even his ‘wife’ Helen, thought him craven. I felt like I was nearly as enraged as the Achaeans who found that they had to stay to finish the war.
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